Sexist Grading System

Lynn Hill Wiki wrote: Long an advocate for gender equality in climbing, Hill has argued that men and women can climb the same routes: "I think they should have women compete on the same climbs as the men, and if the women can't do the climbs, then they shouldn't be competing"

What more really needs to be said hah?

This shit is to feminism what terrorism is to islam.

PosiDave wrote: They also said Lynn Hill wasn't a stonemaster. and I guess that means if she graded the Nose at 5.14a? it was really only 5.12d because for us dudes it is easier?

Lol. I believe Lynne Hill graded The Nose 13b or 13c. It is worth noting that the crux pitches are both thin cracks, and that a guy upgraded it to 14a.

brenta wrote: Did you read this?

No, clearly not. I'm a privileged white male so I clearly couldn't be bothered to actually read the article before commenting on it. That's just how we roll in the patriarchy.

Let's put the Indonesian females back into the equation then. Women on average are shorter, worldwide. So grades are definitely sexist. But men in certain regions of the world are also shorter, so the grades are definitely racist. I happen to know that the androgynous Ewok people of Gliese 667cc are only 0.7m tall, on average. So our grades are also Terrestrialist.

Why should we focus on the constituencies that you believe to be relevant? Maybe the constituencies you're glossing over would become relevant if you stopped marginalizing them. Perhaps if they felt included, the Indonesian women and Vietnamese women would be a force to be reckoned with in American rock climbing. Besides, the Ewoks love climbing and once they develop lightspeed travel they'll be flocking to the Earth to climb in droves. If we want to be inclusive and not marginalize anyone, we need to factor in everyone.

When an Ewok tries to climb green, but takes a huge whipper and dies, that's on you. If only the Ewok had known green was 5.9, not 5.4. You can take solace that it's not all your fault, gravity on a small forested moon is much less than here on Earth. We should probably account for gravitational bias too...

Matt Stroebel wrote:You can take solace that it's not all your fault, gravity on a small forested moon is much less than here on Earth. We should probably account for gravitational bias too...

Clearly gravity is the big elephant in the room. Depending on where you are on the planet gravity will be slightly different and could affect the grade.

6 Pages?

JNE wrote: Lol. I believe Lynne Hill graded The Nose 13b or 13c. It is worth noting that the crux pitches are both thin cracks, and that a guy upgraded it to 14a.

Yep. A lot of the folks trashing the article seem to be oblivious as to how things have gone in the past when the shoe is on the other foot.

From the American Alpine Club writeup of Scott Burks efforts on the Nose.

Scott did not lead every pitch of the Nose, but did free every pitch. He plans to return next year to properly lead every hard section. He feels the Great Roof warrants a rating of 5.14a. Although Lynn Hill rated this pitch 5.13, others who have checked out the moves, such as Yuji Hirayama, have offered a 13d/14a rating for those of normal finger stature as well.

brenta wrote: You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm not sure why you want to discuss it with me. I thought I made it clear I'm not interested.

You're right. I would much prefer to discuss it with someone who actually has something of substance to contribute.

I'm not finishing the article and not really reading through rest of the comments. Could be my mindset today but I'm chalking the article up to a guy trying to drive traffic to his website/blog/feed whatever-a-gram by talking about what he thinks is a current hot button issue that applies to something it doesn't.

on to the next subject

ViperScale wrote: Clearly gravity is the big elephant in the room. Depending on where you are on the planet gravity will be slightly different and could affect the grade.

Climbing friend,

I find that one also may make even such harder and more bold flash depending on the phase of the moon.

Hahahahahah, WTFudge?

-Strength to weight ratio is significantly improved for shorter people. Advantage sometimes, disadvantage other times. Try being 6'4" and doing a route where the holds feel compressed together. I sometimes have to try to undercling or lieback other peoples' rest stances. Also, no matter how strong I get I have to hoist a giant person up the rock that only sometimes has reachy holds. How many pros are over 6 ft, by the way?

-Grades are biased toward average (not tall) climbers and as more short people start to climb the average might change.

-So everything height related in life is sexist?

-How do colors instead of numbers do anything except make your new guidebook annoying?

-It's funny that people actually think like this.

The only way to grade a climb is subjectively.. I'm a male who is 5'6" and I've seen my taller partners cruise sections I struggle on because they can skip the shity sloper and grab the jug.. I've also seen my partners struggles in tight corners and under roofs where I've felt very comfortable.

This person is grasping for straws attempting to be a "feminist". Climbing grades are not sexist nor are they set in stone.. They are meant to be a general guide for the level of difficulty of a climb. But what do I know I'm a white Cis male who hasn't checked my privalge..

This Article should be on tumbler not on MP.com

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I find that one also may make even such harder and more bold flash depending on the phase of the moon.

As usual, climbing friend Aleks is spot on.

We need to immediately revise all climbing texts to include a moon phase multiplier. Also, we'll need to acknowledge that any route completed when Mercury is in Retrograde is upgraded to at least 5.13.

Matt Stroebel wrote: As usual, climbing friend Aleks is spot on. We need to immediately revise all climbing texts to include a moon phase multiplier. Also, we'll need to acknowledge that any route completed when Mercury is in Retrograde is upgraded to at least 5.13.

We could maybe even factor in the last poop you have taken. I know the first thing I do before getting on a hard route is take a poop but maybe others don't know about this.

ViperScale wrote: People who don't like a post but can't find an augment against it look at grammar. You know what we don't need to go to a color system. We just need to add an extra letter for height friendliness of the route. How about we do 5.10a and leave the R, X, PG-13 for the danger and add an extra SO (easier for short), TO (easier for tall), T (tall friendly but not really bad for short), or S (easier for short but still not bad for tall). We could even do the same for hands SHO, SH, BH, BHO. Than we will have the perfect system to rule them all. /sarcasm off

I'm actually just too lazy and don't really care enough to read each novel you post so I read the first sentence and critic the atrocious grammar. I'm sure if i read the entire thing I could prolly come up with some lame argument and several grammatical errors, but like I said, don't really care.

It should also be noted the majority of the time I'm on this site I am way drunk.

Matt Stroebel wrote: Besides, the Ewoks love climbing...

And other things. Just sayin'. Watch the anus.

JNE wrote: Lol. I believe Lynne Hill graded The Nose 13b or 13c. It is worth noting that the crux pitches are both thin cracks, and that a guy upgraded it to 14a.

Yup, none of the macho men want to touch this little gem. So, by their logic, the nose is only a 5.13b, because that is what it felt like to Lynn Hill. Upgrading the route by a weaker male is pure bullshit, they just couldn't take the blows to their ego.

Can you imagine how difficult some 13b's are for a girl as short as Lynn Hill?

Yep, they felt just about like a 5.14a.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I find that one also may make even such harder and more bold flash depending on the phase of the moon.

Aleks don't tell anyone this little gem, lest there be lines on the routes you want to flash at the right cycle!!

J Q wrote: Yup, none of the macho men want to touch this little gem. So, by their logic, the nose is only a 5.13b, because that is what it felt like to Lynn Hill. Upgrading the route by a weaker male is pure bullshit, they just couldn't take the blows to their ego. Can you imagine how difficult some 13b's are for a girl as short as Lynn Hill? Yep, they felt just about like a 5.14a.

Lol. Exactly. Lyne Hill graded The Nose 13b or 13c. Then some guy came along and instead of saying "some climbs fit other climbers better, lets not talk about the grade, lets just enjoy life, thereby demonstrating our better-than-that-persons character", they upgraded it to 14a. Apparently Lynne should have the character to routinely deal with that kind of thing, but her male "peers" were off the hook.

That is a perfect and real world example which is the equivalent of a small girl, or Indonesian male, upgrading a dyno, or any other reachy route, and expecting the world to recognize their efforts, which would apparently put their poor character and giant ego on display.

And also, we still apparently do not have a "dude grade" culture, and people who have written about it have demonstrated their lack of character and giant ego (see a pattern here...).

Its funny and ridiculous. People should be able to talk about their subjective experiences and their friends should recognize and celebrate that subjectivity, instead of requiring everyone to agree to some idiocy where everyone has the same experience on every climb, and if they do not they just need to keep their mouths shut about it because that would be focusing on the wrong things. With a few exceptions, it is mostly guys who do that, and it is done by people who would only be "in control" in order to "control the narrative" by virtue of such idiocy. In fact, I argue that the whole point of it is to try to be "in control" in order to "control the narrative". I'm more of a fan of "personal grades", and letting the shared waking dream be directed by all involved.

The point isn't to not change a route's grade. The point is to get multi people who have climbed the route give a grade. In the case of The Nose we still don't have enough people who have climbed it to give a real grade on it.

It isn't that the route may be harder for one person or another but it is to try to get an average of people who can climb it on how hard it is.

I know of V5s that I thought were V1 because they happened to fit me perfectly. If I am the first person to climb this route and 50 others feel it is a V5 do I get to leave the grade as V1?

Grades are naturally going to be skewed toward the average person's size. So if the average climber (not person aka so fewer females = less shorter people grading) is 5'10'' than routes are generally going to be rated expecting the person to be that size. It means if you are taller or shorter than you may find the route harder / easier for you.

The Universe is sexist; sue God, whatever his, or her, name may be.