Speed Big Walling as Four

2 quarts of water per man per day for 4 people for 4 days with NONE for emergencies or the unknown weighs 66 pounds not including the bottles. Adding only one more gallon a day (and still not enough water IMHO) brings the total to 98 pounds.
There is no way this crew is getting off the ground with less that 275/300 pounds.

Hold on now. Just to be clear, this whole thread was asking about a system for climbing as quickly as possible with a team of four. The initial system was enormous and clearly not the best way. But now we are down to 2/3 ropes, short fixing, rope soloing, and block leads. Just because we don't expect to do anything IAD given our inexperience doesn't mean that the goal isn't speed.

My point is that we never intend to spend more than two nights on any wall ever, which is why we are trying to figure out the most efficient and least cluster-y method for four. We are also going to take Erik's advice and have three personal day-use bags, one for each hauler and one for the belayer. So yes, the goal (whether or not it will actually happen) is still to keep total hauled weight for the bags under 200.

Hanging at belays can be the worst time you'll have on a wall, in my experience. The various 4-man setups I've been reading here for the past few days seem to maximize this for at least 2 of the members of your party. It's really hot and uncomfortable hanging there for an hour or two, or possibly longer.

Mark Hudon brings up a good point on water weight. My partner and I hauled 1 gallon per person, per day on a 6 day, 5 night ascent of the Muir in mid-June. In addition to that, we brought an extra gallon of water and a half gallon of gatorade. We began rationing water on day 3 and were completely out of liquids after we finished shuttling gear to the top. I remember hauling the bags on the 5th day, when the hauling was relatively easy and mostly free hanging, in full Sun fighting myself to avoid drinking sips from my water bottle. I'd make deals with myself, like 20 bodyweight pulls on the bag before a sip, and I'd struggle to get there.

It's enjoyable looking at the vistas off El Cap and all, but you kinda quit caring when you're hot, low on water, and hanging for hours in a harness.

Jugging free hanging lines, to me, is the second least fun experience on walls. Again, two members of your team will be doing this a lot.

The novelty and enjoyment to be had climbing El Cap evaporates quickly when you're spending all the time hanging at belays, jugging free lines, and hauling impossibly heavy loads.

If 2 nights is your max, you're pretty much limited to Zodiac (on El Cap) unless your leaders are on-sighting 5.11 and/or are really fast at aid.

My partner and I did Zodiac (my El Cap debut) a couple years ago in 1 bivy, plus a night on top. Here are some things I think we did well:

• Lead in blocks. I led every pitch without question. Not having the option to quit leading really helped me not stress too much about what was coming.
• Start climbing at dawn and don't stop until sunset. We didn't talk much to each other all day or stop for lunch. We ate snacks all day.
• Follower/cleaner ties backup knots instead of using a gri-gri for backup. If the knots are tied about every 30 feet and organized reasonably well, it saves you from re-flaking the rope at the top of the pitch. When the leader begins leading again, the belayer just unties the backup knots as needed while belaying. Stacking/flaking ropes wastes time.

I'd reccomend reading Chris Mac's book on wall climbing

Fastest and easiest way to climb a wall and haul in Yosemite is as a 3 man team. In this system the leader never stops leading. 2 ropes-1 lead, 1 haul and 1 tag line which gets connected to the haul line with a locker.

Leader leads, hits anch, pulls and coils tag line then pulls and fixes haul line and non-belayer immediately starts speed jugging with hauling traxion as 3rd back up instead of knots, leader fixes lead line then begins to lead next pitch short fixing with remaining lead rope.

3rd man hits the anch first and sets up the haul and the 2cnd is still there to release the bag. 3rd starts hauling and puts leader on grigri no hands belay. Second cleans pitch and counterweights the haul to assist. Leader tags up gear as needed.

The key is the tag line connected to the haul line, it enables the leader to keep going and retrieve gear later on. Short fixing is mandatory and the leader never unties, they need to be tied in to go back on normal belay. Block leading only.

I wouldn’t bother with individual bags to lighten the haul bag. Jugging steepness with a backpack on sucks big time I would rather do the work at the haul.

What I started doing is using an 8.5 dynamic line for the tag and attaching a small haulbag with the days essentials like jackets, water, food, extra gear to the point where tag and haul lines are connected. Leader carries a micro trax and hauls up the small bag on the tag. This system has many benefits which could be discussed at length.

If I were to add one more person to this arrangement I would have the 4th speed jug the haul line after the 3rd and they could get the belaying and hauling done better. This would be an alright way to climb. Everyone would lead some pitches, the days would be relatively easy which makes a big difference. I would plan on 3-4 days if I were you and enjoy the free camping. No need to rush back down to the circus in the valley.

Just saying, we are so stoked to jug fixed lines and haul 300 lb. bags and be really hot and parched.

EDIT: Ryan, after re-reading your post, I wanna be clear that I definitely feel what you were saying about "you stop caring after a while." You are totally right. But right now, looking ahead, I'm very excited for the attempt, suffering and all.

Alex, success or not, I think you are going to have a lot of fun and learn a lot. I get the feeling that you guys have the right attitude towards it.

This sounds like a super sick and advanced system. very impressive, but also sounds very difficult to execute with out creating unwanted knots and clusters. Seems safe enough, but clusters do seem quite possible. If your bringing this may ropes, why not have a two fixing, and a two hauling, then try to aim for the haul bag to be at the top of the third pitch as the second reachers the top of the 4th, so the leaders can haul while the latter two can jug, then switch.

Long Duk Dong wrote: The key is the tag line connected to the haul line

Yeah, I also had that question. I was thinking the tag would be connected to the rear harness loop of the cleaner, who would manage the slack by coiling it around his shoulder while cleaning if it starting to hang down too low.

Well, after 70+ responses I think we are going to go with the system below. It has four lines, not two, but I think that it is considerably faster and more efficient than the previously suggested two line system for the following reasons:

1. Leader has to do much less before he can blast off to the next pitch. Just build the anchor, clove in and go. He doesn't have to manage slack for two fixed lines, just his own lead line.

2. Cleaner blasts off immediately, meaning that the leader gets the gear back as quickly as possible.

3. There is no needed to jug a weighted haul line, ever.

4. The haul is set up to be safely counterweighted throughout, meaning that we will not need to worry about 2:1s or anything like that.

5. Layering is better and less prone to tangles. Lead line slack will be managed with a bag, as with the haul line. The jugging line (B) will be stored on backup knots attached to C4's harness. C4 himself can also chill out below the other two partners on his tether if the belay is super crowded.

Alex Wyvill wrote:Yeah, I also had that question. I was thinking the tag would be connected to the rear harness loop of the cleaner, who would manage the slack by coiling it around his shoulder while cleaning if it starting to hang down too low. Well, after 70+ responses I think we are going to go with the system below. It has four lines, not two, but I think that it is considerably faster and more efficient than the previously suggested two line system for the following reasons: 1. Leader has to do much less before he can blast off to the next pitch. Just build the anchor, clove in and go. He doesn't have to manage slack for two fixed lines, just his own lead line. 2. Cleaner blasts off immediately, meaning that the leader gets the gear back as quickly as possible. 3. There is no needed to jug a weighted haul line, ever. 4. The haul is set up to be safely counterweighted throughout, meaning that we will not need to worry about 2:1s or anything like that. 5. Layering is better and less prone to tangles. Lead line slack will be managed with a bag, as with the haul line. The jugging line (B) will be stored on backup knots attached to C4's harness. C4 himself can also chill out below the other two partners on his tether if the belay is super crowded.

If it's an overhanging pitch, then for sure.

Ryan7crew wrote: Well there is a bag at the end, that would stop ya eventually.

The leader attaches the tag line to their harness, probably haul loop. The tag line is connected to the haul line with a locking carabiner, the ropes will have an eight on a bite to clip into the locker.

The leader pulls the tag line which pulls up the haul line attached to the end of it and pulls the rest of the slack from the haul line before fixing. Coil tag and put in a sling or bag to feed while leader begins to short fix.

There is not much clutter in this system. The two ropes can easily be managed in rope bags which I prefer.

You are creating one massive rope, tag line connected to haul line. If you are using 60m ropes then it would be 120m end to end. If the leader is 150ft out they can still get stuff tagged to them.

This system is versatile. If doing much free climbing on a route like Salathe, use a 4mm tag and the leader carries no extra gear so they can climb hard. If hauling on something like Mescalito, then use an 8mm tag and lead with a micro trax and use that to haul the tag line up and attach a small haulbag end the end of the tag if you want to have some gear or water going to the leader.

This is a little difficult to explain in writing.

Long Duk Dong wrote: This is a little difficult to explain in writing.

Stephen Felker wrote: aka Suicide Hauling

Alex, your new table looks much better. My only comments are:

1. don't swap teams. Let people get into the groove of what they have to do and learn from it. Swap at the start of the new day. Even if this means on one wall one team gets more leading than the other. On the next wall they can do more of the leading.
2. start with the length of a block (i.e. the time between switching leaders) half a day (i.e. you switch once). This I think gives the right balance between the faff of a switch and keeping fresh. Once you are covering more ground more quickly then make the the blocks shorter in time. On my first run at doing The Prow in a day we didn't think of switching until Nick had done 9 pitches - this was way too much as he was psychologically crushed by then as it was only his second aid climb. You might be looking at 6 pitches a day , so 3 each might be just right.
3. I'm not sure you need the tag line unless you are brave and climb hard. If you plan to free climb whilst short fixing and use a 90m rope you will need it as you will get a long way from the belay before the second arrives. If however you think it more likely that you will only get a few metres in the time it takes for the cleaner to reach the belay you should be able to drop a loop of rope down to pick up the rack. Remember, as the lead line will be tied off to the upper anchors, the leader can only move up a distance equal to the rope length minus the last pitch length minus the rope used in the upper and lower belays. But even getting 10m would be impressive. Much of the time they will be so short of gear they might only move up three pieces.
4. If you do take a tag if will need to be stored in a rope bag, which is yet another bit of kit and faff.

Rubin Field wrote: The bag is docked, not weighting the rope, which is why C2 jugs, then later, C4 lowers out bag weighting the line for hauling.

David,

I don't recall having any trouble with wind blowing it around. I do remember having to take care if coiling or feeding it because it can tangle easily.

I've had another idea about this tag system over the last year. There was a fatality on El Cap where a dude was aiding and a rock cut his lead rope, he fell to the end of the static haul line attached to him and died of some sort of impact trauma.

What if he had a dynamic tag line instead? Would that have acted like a back up safety rope when the lead line was cut? What if the belayer was tending to this line almost like a belay, would that have saved a life?

I don't know but am thinking it could and that is a nice benefit.