The Erik Sloan ethics thread

Erik Sloan, I never met you or heard of you until this September when you come up on ST asking money donation for your rope swing.
Before you started promoting your Yosemite select guidebook for short routes our climbing passes never cross since you did aid climbing big walls and I do mainly free short and mid size routes in the Valley

Since this september I learn a lot about you 1) from your own replays about your questionable actions in YV- reading on ST and MP treads 2) from the way how you promoting yourself, and 3) from people who I personally know and trust. All 3 sources above brought negative opinion about you. It was also 4th source of information: people who I do not know, but you know them well and expected from them endorsement of your actions but they in the contrary of your expectation did not support you. [a)ASCA withdraw your support in 2005, b) you claimed support from Tom Frost but it tuned out to be only your wrong interpretation, c) Albert- the climber who help you with your guide and you arrogantly named climbing area after him without his consent -chopped your mid anchor bolts on BOR, b) your friends , partners and co-author do not support you retro-bolting and ask you to stop to do so. You are talking about big support of you from community in the Valley - but every name you drop - turned out later do not support your specific actions which was clearly addressed on related ST treads.

Very few people continue to support you here: “K Weber” and “T Roper” - it is separate topic why, but it looks like this support not coming from knowledge of what you are doing.

Your answers always wordy , took a lot of space but never been direct and clear.

At some point I realize that there no reason to have any direct communications with you - because you do not respect other opinions even if it expressed by dominating majority and you rigidly follow what YOU think is RIGHT. So when you are talking about you “stewardship in Yosemite” it is in fact it is “ stewardship in Yosemite done by ES for ES “
As I say above I think Yosemite park do not need Erik Sloan stewardship and be better off without it.
The example which I knew well of such “stewardship” is how you place mid bolts on BOR. Personal gain for you and for other guides to quickly train clients for aiding longer routes. You do not give a f* about other climbers opinion, saying that if bolts chopped- it be re-install again and never admitted that you were wrong. Intentional downplay/downgrade of the quality of the chosen for aid practice BOR and ChirchBowlTree routes to explain why free climbing routes be occupied for aid. Do you have a feeling that you are owner of YV since you place more than 2000 bolts there? Dispatching/Managing climbers flow - is this what you think you deserve as compensation for your “stewardship”? . So what happen when you drill there 4000 bolts? Going to be Imperator Of Yosemite and kick out of the park people you do not want to listen?
You started asking about identity of the people bugging you.
Alexey is my real name and you can find my photo in MP profile folder and same name I post on ST and with same name I crossing borders with my passport. But this tread is not about me . The tread's name we are posting call “The Erik Sloan ethics thread”

You ask me one direct question “
“Alexey - have you participated in stewardship projects in Yosemite?”
And here is my explicit and direct answer
“No, I did not”

Can you take it as template and proceed same way with many questions people asked you on 10 Days After tread:
supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

Example:
Erik did you use power drill to drill your bolts holes?
“No, I did not” or “Yes, I did ”

Erik are you going to continue to retro-bolt existing routes?

“ No I’won’t “ or “ Yes I will”

and so on …

Erik Sloan wrote: Even if I disagree with Tommy Caldwell about adding bolts midpitch to the Reticent Wall or Adrift, I wouldn't go online and call Tommy out on it. If I climb the Reticent I don't have to clip those bolts.

Umm? You do realize you just posted this on a popular, international, public forum.

I think it is really awesome that Tony Bubb likes to wear Csproul's g-string underwear. But I wouldn't call him out on the Internet.

You see how that works? It's like saying something and then saying you wouldn't say it. Buf you already did.

Sorry Tony and csproul. You were selected at random to make my point.

SirTobyThe3rd wrote: Did you check if crack a go go get 5 new bolts? Or maybe wheat thin had a midway anchor so that a noob could practice pendulums into butterballs?!

Funny, I did climbed at Cookie today and can tell you for sure that Sloan so far did not visit Cookie cliff. So I was truly hallucinated 4 weeks ago. But I checked Sentinel creek area today and Sloan WAS THERE!
to be continued...

Erik Sloan, I have a direct question for you. Couple month ago you started tread about your select Yosemite book where you posted Sentinel creek topo as a teaser with some new route development.
mountainproject.com/v/new-y…

One of the new routes there called Yama-Shama 50 ft , 11b . It has 7 bolts on the topo. Here is it photo bellow. The route was done recently this fall. On Labor day I was there and at this time- route did not exist. I was there again today and surprised to see this route as BOLTED CRACK. I did not climb it , so I can not say for sure, but looks like at least 5 bolts out of 7 are redundant to possible crack protection.

My questions:
1. Do you know the names of FA party.[I think you should since you include this route in your book]

2. Do you know the reasons why FA party places bolts next to crack?

3.Did you personally participated in drilling those bolts for Yama-Shama?

Yama-Shama. Red circles - bolts

to see better you can select and enlarge enclosed photo.

Note: the distance between bolt 4 and 5 is less than 2 feet- no kidding

^^^^ Wow, that bolt job looks enticingly excessive. That is the signature of a Sloan job.

Erik Sloan wrote:Yo Healje: Mike Ousely - in the end you just look like someone who is unwilling to get involved, but who wants to sit back and direct any efforts made in your community. That's not the way community involvement works. People do their best.

Translation: I am involved through my bolt replacement, therefore I have the right to do as I wish.

Speaking of community, do you attempt to get a consensus opinion on the things that you do before you do them? I've heard the justification of the actions in questions somewhere along the lines of "it's a good practice circuit for beginners."

Then you go on to say that most people have no problem with what you do. You mean all those beginners who couldn't possibly learn to lower out without the convenience of the route you retrobolted to facilitate this learning?

I fail to see your majority support anywhere. Then you say essentially that internet forums don't accurately represent people that actually climb in Yosemite. Until Ammon and others chime in- then that rationale and justification gets destroyed as well.

The fact is, a lot of people, and a lot of BEGINNERS whom you recruit to be on your side represent a sect of people that are willing to look the other way because you make a point of saying "OMG look at all the good work I've done to keep you safe!" Simultaneously, it seems like anyone that knows their shit and actually knows what the long standing ethics of no retrobolting in YV (and elsewhere) are, and the implications of doing so, are not on your side. And by YOUR standards, their opinion carries more weight than others.

By the way, the "you don't climb in Yosemite regularly, so you shouldn't have an opinion" is the stupidest argument ever. That's like saying "you're not a senator so you can't bitch about what Congress does."

How hard would it be to just replace old bolts, and not add any more? How on earth did people learn to aid, haul, and lower out before you made your "practice" circuit? Why do you feel it is your job to lessen the learning curve? Where is the grey area you speak of? What is so difficult about "no new bolts on legitimate, established routes? There is no grey area. Your ego is wildly out of control.

Let me clue you in on a fact Erik:

Just because someone does not participate in stewardship, it doesn't mean they've relinquished their right to an opinion, and their right to see longstanding ethical traditions upheld. You keep coming back to that nugget of defense, and it is worthless. And what would you say to someone that does participate in stewardship, and disagrees with some of what you do? Oh, that's right, that's back to the "grey area" defense.

Every retort from you reeks of self importance. You have nowhere to go. When you name drop, a bigger name shows up that's against you. When your "you're not a steward so you have no voice" defense doesn't work, then you bounce back to "well ethics are a grey area". That has been the pattern of your involvement in this entire thread. It is painfully obvious too.

The funniest part is when you called someone out that actually offered to help you in your stewardship. He offered to help you as sort of a compromise because you actually owned up to something and discussed it. Then, as a result, you insult him, and in a condescending tone suggest he's not a real person. I would like to thank you for doing that. The more you do things like that, the more you show your true colors.

This will one day all catch up with you, unfortunately (for you). If you keep pushing, and keep pissing people off, it will come home to roost. Delusion won't help you then.

Greg D wrote: Sorry Tony and csproul. You were selected at random to make my point.

You know, you do one silly thing in life, and nobody ever lets you live it down...

The show goes on...

showtime

I was told a Beyer aid route met up with Paradise Lost on pitch two and and a bolt or two was added. Sorry Jim if I'm wrong! Either way, given that the pro for the whole pitch used to consist of a bashed in stopper, I'm glad a bolt was added! Call me new school, I think a few routes higher up on the MC north apron could use a bolt between the ground and the VERY high first bolts originally put in. I'm all about taking 60 ft sliders, so long as those slides don't end up with me on the ground fucked up. I know I know, if I can't climb it, don't get on it...

-Ryan

they will support the mid way anchors, added bolts, replacing copperheads with 3/8inchers, they will also hero-worship you and accept ALL the 'stewardship' that y

Frank, forgive me if my first post was just unclear, but it appears you have taken a number of things I said out of context in order to make me more partisan than I intended to be.

My goal in writing before was the pipe dream of trying to get people to empathize with Erik at least a little bit, so maybe there really could be helpful discussion that went somewhere instead of violent rhetoric that leads to further polarization. The problem is that everyone is so certain that they are right that all the comments come across so angry that I can't even imagine being Erik reading them.

I get it, everyone's mad, but maybe writing really nasty things and not trying to understand how someone could see something a really different way than you isn't the way to go about it. [And this is the part you kept leaving out when you quoted me:] But this doesn't mean you have to wholesale give up your own opinion or the way you feel about it, just leave a little room in there for somebody else's experience (rather than being so sure you are right every post you make completely lacks empathy for the person you are targeting, why would anyone expect a positive response to that?)

Anyway, that was my goal. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that I was unclear before, and that you didn't intentionally take what I said out of context so I'll try to explain it here:

FrankPS wrote: I suspect most of the people posting on this thread do actually climb and have climbed in Yosemite. The number of days you climb there, or whether you live there, doesn't determine "ownership" or ethics of your choosing.

I didn't say you get "ownership" or ethics of your choosing. What I said was:

me wrote:"I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, I'm just asking you to consider that you might not fully understand the situation."

So I guess you might have missed that, I did focus on the other part more (in hopes people would listen, a fool's errand I know). All I'm asking is for people to listen to each other before they keep attacking, but nobody's really listening or I don't think their posts would be so angry. I don't expect anyone to change their minds about the bolts on BOR, but just how pissed they are about it and at Erik.

FrankPS wrote: I think your reference to "armchair climbers" is based on nothing, just like my guess that most people in this forum do climb.

It's based on me clicking on people's names and stalking their MP profiles and attached links and judging them based on that 30-seconds of evidence. Unfair, I know, but Atascadero looks pretty close to the Bay, so I get why you're upset about that one.

FrankPS wrote: Reminds me of an election where the loser said they would have won if there had been a better turnout. As if he knew that the non-voters would have supported him.

I didn't say the politician in question would have won, because I wasn't trying to focus on the win/lose binary. I was thinking more along the lines of people might be more understanding of Erik in this situation. Regardless, that kind of voter selection bias is actually a really serious problem in the US voting system

FrankPS wrote: How does the number of days change one's ethics? (see above about "ownership").

Again, I didn't say this. I said that one ought to consider that their experience is different than Erik's, and before spouting off they may consider there might be more to it than what they already think.

FrankPS wrote:Why won't you stake out an opinion? According to you, your opinion is worth more than we armchair climbers.

Okay, this one you had to do on purpose. The rest of my sentence that you didn't quote is: "and I don't consider that enough to speak about where there should or shouldn't be bolts."

But, maybe you meant to ask me to clarify that? In which case, I was trying to make the point that my relative experience looks like inexperience in comparison to a lot of people out there. So if I was going to say what I thought (which I wouldn't even consider at this point, because a thousand other people said it much more angrily than I ever would), I would really think long and hard and leave room for what I might not know because I am not god of Yosemite. Again, I'm not saying you can't have your same opinion, just the way you say it could be a little more emphatic to other opinions out there.

FrankPS wrote:I concede that the more time one spends at a given climbing area, the more sense of ownership that person has. But that doesn't give them carte blanche in that area, in my opinion, disregarding the majority.

Okay, I definitely didn't say that you get absolute control over the area by spending a lot of time there. I said you might know more, and so one ought to take that into consideration in a discussion of ethics such as this.

FrankPS wrote:And since there is no formal method for determining the majority, basic ethics principles apply. For example, in general, don't retrobolt.

This is the vague grayness that got us into this mess, that I was try to push us beyond in my post before the one you discussed.

I guess I'm just new to the internet. What should I have expected...

Jeff,
Retro bolting is not a gray area. Don't retrobolt free climbs. If Eric would stop going against a long established ethic this would all go away.

Erik Sloan wrote:I don't have any problem telling him he could be more involved with community issues in Yosemite. He did after all contribute the YCA losing it's most potent program, the Ask A Climber program.

How exactly did I contribute in losing the Ask A Climber program?

I was asked to fill in for the program for one week and I was VERY professional while I was on the clock, at the bridge. I was offered beer many times, which I absolutely refused to drink while working. I engaged every single person who wanted to know about climbers and their actions. I won't comment what I've seen others who've worked the program doing, but let's just say it was less than professional, including yourself Erik.

Your arguments for your own actions are a joke. Why don't you grow a pair, stand up like a man and confront the issues the community has with YOUR actions... not anyone else's.

Why bring the conversation over here? You abandoned the debate over on supertopo and flat out deleted your facebook post, because it wasn't going the way you wanted it to. Is it because you have more supporters over here?

Thinking that the majority of our climbing community agrees with everything you do is delusional. We've been trying to get you to stop power drilling on existing routes for over 15 years. It angers a lot of people and you just keep shrugging it off, as no big deal.

How many voices does it take for you to understand that it IS a BIG deal?

Erik Sloan wrote: Ammon and I are friends.

lol

ElCapPirate wrote: Thinking that the majority of our climbing community agrees with everything you do is delusional.

I don't think anyone really thinks that ElCap.

Adam Stackhouse wrote: I don't think anyone really thinks that ElCap.

I was directing the statement to Erik. His own words, that the majority of the climbers in Yosemite agrees with what he's doing.

Hey Gang,

Sounds like everyone is still pretty riled up, just wanting to post up a bunch of heated opinions about everything. Busy today but I will try to respond to a couple, misguided observations.

Alexey - really, really love your post about that Yama Shama route(eye roll). So let me get this straight - you didn't climb it, and are all upset that a crack might have been bolted. For starters, there are several bolted cracks in the Valley, so first ascentionists can do whatever they want. But really, you didn't even climb it - you could have just climbed up the 'crack' fifteen feet to check it out? This is a sport climb a 10 minute hike from the car. I didn't put up the route. My friend did. I tried to toprope it - I don't climb 5.11, haha.

To the guy who said that I was calling Tommy Caldwell out by using him as an example: you definitely haven't read this thread. I'm not calling Tommy Caldwell out - I'm saying I live the way Tommy Caldwell lives - I try to tread on the rock as lightly as possible, but occasionally I do something that would be considered in a grey area in climbing ethics.

Ammon I'm sorry you don't know the story about your community climbing organization losing it's best program, and the role you played in it. Please email me directly and I'll tell you what I know.

If this thread is about my ethics, then it is about celebrating Yosemite and making the most of the time that we get to spend here. It has been stormy here lately and the Valley looks awesome. Live it Up!

Woot Woot!
Erik
Yosemitebigwall.com

Erik Sloan wrote: If this thread is about my ethics, then it is about celebrating Yosemite and making the most of the time that we get to spend here.

I'm not sure you understand if/then statements...

Erik Sloan wrote: Alexey - really, really love your post about that Yama Shama route(eye roll). So let me get this straight - you didn't climb it, and are all upset that a crack might have been bolted. For starters, there are several bolted cracks in the Valley, so first ascentionists can do whatever they want. But really, you didn't even climb it - you could have just climbed up the 'crack' fifteen feet to check it out? This is a sport climb a 10 minute hike from the car. I didn't put up the route. My friend did. I tried to toprope it - I don't climb 5.11, haha. been stormy here lately and the Valley looks awesome. Live it Up! Woot Woot! Erik Yosemitebigwall.com

Mr. Sloan, I asked you three simple questions 1) names of FA party of of Yama Shama, 2)the reason why the crack was bolted and 3) about your personal efforts in drilling the bolts on this route.

You manage to write a reply without answering on any of the above questions. I know I'm wasting my time talking with you, and probably other people trying to reach you are wasting their time too.

but remember there is no tolerance of bolted cracks in Yosemite if they provide adequate protection.
I never been in chopping bolts action, but looks like this going to be my " stewardship" for the park if you started bolting cracks for your book publishing business