Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

frank minunni wrote: I'm sure you can do it with a little practice

I bet bearbreeder could pull up an educational vid for us on this

frank minunni wrote: I'm sure you can do it with a little practice

Uhhh,,, I THINK that might be a compliment. Thanks!

the op already said it all, accident due to gri-gri misuse. Damn got me again

rgold wrote: I agree, but I learned the old-fashioned way BITD, and in circumstances more severe than the PATC tests. We put the belayer up on a catwalk under a stadium and dropped the weight past the belayer, thereby creating a fall with fall factor greater than one. (Our actual fall factors were basically the now-standard UIAA rope-test value around 1.7 or 1.8.) So I've caught twenty or so just-about FF2 practice falls, followed, as it turned out, by two real-life ones. I'd guess that the average number of such falls caught by a contemporary climber over the entire course of their career is effectively zero, since falling past the belayer with no more than a single piece in is pretty rare. The main lesson imparted by such falls was how severe the impact of a big fall can be. Once you've had that experience, I think you're inclined to think about both belaying and anchoring a little differently, because you have had a visceral sense of what it it is like to be hit with a big impact. As for getting injured by the testing itself, none of us experienced any issues in that regard. Naturally we wore gloves and padded our backs, since hip belays were the only game in town at the time. The impacts were indeed violent and flung us upwards against our anchors. No one got through a bunch of these without losing control at least once, a sobering thought for those who, if they are ever tested, will be trying for the very first time without any idea what they could be in for. On the issue of losing control, I should add that the original dynamic belay was in those days de rigeur. The belayer was supposed to let a little rope slide as part of catching such extreme falls. Typically, the first attempt to let some rope slide resulted in losing control altogether, and after that a learning process eventually honed in on how to do it.

Sounds like a great argument of why a locking should be the standard...

bearbreeder wrote: i had to dig it up ... but i found it just for you !!! ... and to increase the post count ... wet ropes and grigris are not the best combo ... same type incident as the vid posted Accidents, Psychological Incidents and Near Misses – Report 2002/2003 A Survey Compiled by the European Ropes Course Association Fall whilst Being Lowered with a GriGri during Rain (0220) During the afternoon, after an environmental awareness event for a school class: It had been raining all day. A co-facilitator (a helper without a ropes course health & safety qualification) was meant to lower the facilitator from a tree using a GriGri fixed at ground level. The context was the dismantling of a mobile high ropes course element in a tree, at the end of a one-day programme. Lowering the facilitator down proved to be extremely difficult as the wet rope did not run smoothly/easily through the GriGri. As the rope went through the GriGri, water poured out of the rope. At the beginning of each lowering procedure/phase, the GriGri had to be opened widely for the rope to be able to run through. The facilitator gave instructions from above to the co-facilitator. They had discussed the alternative of lowering with a figure of eight, but the co-facilitator had preferred to use the GriGri, with which he was familiar. Then the fall happened: After lowering the facilitator several times with great jerks, the facilitator fell to the ground from five meters above. The facilitator suffered from serious injury to the spine. Due to the wet rope (and possibly also due to fact that the rope was dirty), the characteristics of the GriGri as a belay device were different from normal. Afterwards, the co-facilitator described the way the accident happened as a malfunctioning of the GriGri. The injured facilitator saw the causes of the accident as the wet equipment due to the rain and the tiredness of both the facilitator and the co-facilitator. Previous to the accident, the facilitator had recommended to use the figure of eight as a belay device, as the rope kept getting stuck. In addition, the group was waiting for the facilitator to go home together after the dismantling of the element. The injured facilitator gave the following additional information about the accident: • Insufficient or total lack of health and safety briefing of the co-facilitator • Sticking too much to given instructions • Inappropriate decision-making and conflict resolution, as well as indecisiveness. The suggestion to belay using a figure of eight because the rope was not running well was disregarded • Working in hazardous weather conditions. Conclusions: • Wet ropes are difficult to break with a GriGri. Similar problems of handling a GriGri can occur with old ropes (eg creep – the sheath moving separately from the heart strands). As a result, the rope will not run through smoothly. The belayer then opens the safety handle even further, so that the rope suddenly runs through a great deal. As the wetness of the rope changes the way the GriGri operates, it is difficult for inexperienced facilitators to adapt their way of operating the GriGri under those weather conditions. The sudden movement of the rope takes the facilitator by surprise, and as a result he or she brakes the rope inadequately. • From a health and safety viewpoint, belaying under difficult external conditions must be part of health and safety training for facilitators. A back-up belay for a heavy going rope could be achieved for instance by self-belaying or by using a back-up belayer. ;)

Like every other point made... you again missed the point... but succeeded in getting this closer to 30 ;-)

Morgan Patterson wrote: Sounds like a great argument of why a locking should be the standard...

I want to emphasize first that I wasn't trying to argue for any position about locking vs. non-locking devices. And one reason for that is that the real problem is more subtle than your comment suggests.

If your belayer is incapable of holding a big impact with a non-locking device, than either the type of training that used to be done BITD is called for, or else a locking device should be substituted.

BUT, the point of allowing slippage through a non-locking belay method was to keep the loads reasonable, so a locking device in such a situation might turn out to be a bad idea because of the increased peak loads. In this case it is just out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Complicating the situation further is the fact that we don't seem to know for sure how the assisted locking devices will perform under extreme loads. A climber who thinks they will get "assistance" from, say, a MegaJul (which seems to be the worst in this regard according to Jim Titt's tests) might end up with less braking effect then if they had used an ATC-XP. If this is so, then the expectation of more than the available friction combined with a lack of training for big impacts might well result in a loss of control for the belayer.

I think a Grigri is the most likely to lock up no matter what. I've read that it slips at 7kN, which may not be exceeded with modern ropes.

rgold wrote: I want to emphasize first that I wasn't trying to argue for any position about locking vs. non-locking devices. And one reason for that is that the real problem is more subtle than your comment suggests. If your belayer is incapable of holding a big impact with a non-locking device, than either the type of training that used to be done BITD is called for, or else a locking device should be substituted. BUT, the point of allowing slippage through a non-locking belay method was to keep the loads reasonable, so a locking device in such a situation might turn out to be a bad idea because of the increased peak loads. In this case it is just out of the frying pan and into the fire. Complicating the situation further is the fact that we don't seem to know for sure how the assisted locking devices will perform under extreme loads. A climber who thinks they will get "assistance" from, say, a MegaJul (which seems to be the worst in this regard according to Jim Titt's tests) might end up with less braking effect then if they had used an ATC-XP. If this is so, then the expectation of more than the available friction combined with a lack of training for big impacts might well result in a loss of control for the belayer. I think a Grigri is the most likely to lock up no matter what. I've read that it slips at 7kN, which may not be exceeded with modern ropes.

;)

Tim Lutz wrote:but are the 'peak loads' lessened if the belayer, armed with Gri, gives the infamous 'soft catch'?

well since were refering to a high factor fall here ...

in a fall factor 1, all "soft" catches are HARD if yr a crag rat, as the catch will be "hard" when your climber goes SPLAT

seriously when cragging if its a fall factor >= 0.7 the LAST thing you want to give is a "soft catch" as with rope stretch and your belayer getting pulled up, decking is a real possibility

soft catches are mostly given in smaller factor (even if fairly large) falls where the main goal is to prevent swing in ...

in multi the "soft" catch should not be counted upon on many belays simply because you are hanging or semi hanging ... and in any case may well not be appropriate on big ledges where you can do the sucker on a high factor fall for the same reason as in cragging ... decking on the ledge

;)

Wow.... headed to page 30.

Rgold and I learned the same way.... hip catch of a greater than a factor 1 fall.

I lost control the first time and the PIG hit the deck, after that I knew just what to expect and adjusted my grip and focused more. I think that that was great training for a long safe climbing career and anyone who wishes to learn about real climbing needs to know this skill. (hi force belay)

I use a Gri-gri for sport climbing so I can hold the "DOG" for hours and give the soft catch... "the jump" when needed.

When climbing and hanging at a stance you cant really do this- jump up - so the whole idea of a soft catch goes out the window. What one really needs to know is how to reel in rope so you shorten the leaders fall. This is for slab climbing only and carried to the extreme involves running away from the base of the climb or even jumping off the ledge. For this the Gri-gri is the tool of choice for me. (I have jumped off before and stopped my leader from decking, by about 4 feet, after a 60 footer in Josh)

The no hands feature is most important when you need to sprint....

As for jumping up to soften the catch, I'm not sure we fully understand the various physical and psychological factors involved in the perception of lower impacts, but I think that even if it is possible for the belayer to jump up, it would be of no value in a high fall-factor catch. One reason for this is that the belayer is going to be lifted whether they jump or not, and I believe jumping has the most effect when friction in the system prevents the belayer from being lifted at all unless they jump.

Jumping up... is a sport climbing thing. Only to soften the swing for the "swing in" on overhangs.

Sport climbing, by definition, has no hi-factor falls.

IMHO the best way to catch hi-factor falls is to avoid them.... with some experience you can see the hi-factor deal coming and move your belay down so you get some rope and pro into the equation.

When you can't move, all you can do is hang on and hope and pray that your leader doesn't fall.

One time Kris and I ended up on a little known Ron Carson climb in the Needles..... up on P3 Kris ran it way out and was almost out of rope when he came across a small crack, a slot in the other wise blank face. One #4 wired nut and one #0 TCU with one lobe showing was the best it could be.... 5.10 face and a roof to overcome lay above.... when no pro was to be found at the roof I started to wine/protest/cry.... Kris didn't want to hear any of it and told me to "be quiet, your messing me up... watch me" I told him.... "you come off, im letting the rope run through the ATC for a long time before I pull back..."

All he said was "good, do that please" then he fired the roof.....

added some grey hairs that day.

I really have nothing to add I just wanted to be the first on 30 :(
Damn missed it...still 29

Well lets see if this gets to 30 ....

A grigri can be quite useful on multi simply because of rockfall .... However if the rock and gear aint BOMBAH ... There is a serious risk of pulling out that key piece in a high factor fall

Theres no "right" or "wrong" answer

In squamish i aint too worried about the gear on a grigri .... In the crap limestone of the canadian rockies, well theres more rockfal but with a doubling of the force in a factor 1 fall yr also more likely to blow out that first piece

How do u decide?

If yr on the deadly ATC ... If you see a big fall coming, or a bir rock coming ...

Simply twirling the rope around yr arm or another body part can save yr climber ... Its easy to practice at home

Incidentaly for lighter folks who hate holding big AZN chubbies like me handogging ... The same technique works well for holding flubbies

Parks Canada Visitor Safety was called to assist Kananaskis Public Safety for a climber who had been struck by falling rock, 2 pitches below the summit of Yamnuska. The party of 4 had intended to climb the route Diretissima but had gone off route. One of the lead climbers was approximately 30m up when a block he was on “the size of a mini fridge” gave way. He had a camming device behind the block which came out and he fell 10m with the block onto another camming device. The belayer saw the fall and the block coming, wrapped the rope around his leg and braced for impact. The rock broke in two and hit the belayer on the back and head, knocking him out, and severely damaging the rope. The fallen leader quickly made an anchor, fixed the climbing rope, and descended to the belayer on prussiks, while the other party above descended to help. They called Kananaskis Public Safety who instructed them to stay put and help was on the way. The belayer regained consciousness eventually, but was bleeding profusely from his head.

The belayer luckily had the forethought to wrap the rope around his leg before impact. If he hadn’t, the outcome could have been much worse as the lead climber would have fallen much further.



pc.gc.ca/eng/pn-np/mtn/secu…

Hey, Bear, any chance of doing this on a moving rope?

Old lady H wrote:Hey, Bear, any chance of doing this on a moving rope?

No ... Has to happen before theres tension

But you can do it while never letting go of the rope ... Simply twirl yr right brake fist (should have the grip of death at this point) clockwise .... You likely wont get more than one or two twirls in before the rope gets taught

Its more of a proactive thing where one knows the climber is in a sketchy situation and a huge fall is possible ... The climber will be climbing slowly at this point

Reach down for decent slack

Feed rope

Twirl

Climber makes a move

Untwirl

Reach down

Feed rope

Twirl

Etc ....

You may break your wrist in a huge fall but yr climber will be alive

Thats a trade any good belayer would make

Tim Lutz wrote:potential amputation or use Gri.. so many decisions!

Blow out ur gear or use ATC

The 6 KN vs 4 kn (or 5kn vs 3 kn on a ff 0.7) on petzls test where they did actual belay setups with real people (not steel weights) is as realistic as a test you can get in a controlled environment

6 KN approaches or exceeds the limit of many micro cams and nuts

Not to mention it can blow out poor rock

Realistically there is no "right" answer ... Just choices

Except on da intrawebz where folks cant take any points about a particular device having issues because "it always catches for you"

Are we at 30 yet????

;)

bearbreeder wrote: No ... Has to happen before theres tension But you can do it while never letting go of the rope ... Simply twirl yr right brake fist (should have the grip of death at this point) clockwise .... You likely wont get more than one or two twirls in before the rope gets taught Its more of a proactive thing where one knows the climber is in a sketchy situation and a huge fall is possible ... The climber will be climbing slowly at this point Reach down for decent slack Feed rope Twirl Climber makes a move Untwirl Reach down Feed rope Twirl Etc .... You may break your wrist in a huge fall but yr climber will be alive Thats a trade any good belayer would make

Hmmm...having trouble picturing this, so I'll have to give a whirl next time I've got a harness on. Maybe give the gym folks pause, eh?

Old lady H wrote: Hmmm...having trouble picturing this, so I'll have to give a whirl next time I've got a harness on. Maybe give the gym folks pause, eh?

Next time you hold someone who is handogging

Simply bring your left hand up above the brake hand on the brake rope

Keep a solid hold on the rope with both hands

Slide the brake hand down about a foot or two

And twirl your wrist twice around the rope clockwise (if right handed) while keeping that brake hand SOLID

Thats all there is to it

Maybe ill do a picture tutorials as we arent at 30 yet ...

;)

Start

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Intro...

Edit:
Well damn, Jim. I was for sure the next poster would be 30 and I was setting the intro, but it appears my timing was off. Continue on, please.

Sure that´s not still page 29?