Logistics and technique of ground-up bolting with glue-ins?

Anybody here have much experience with putting up new routes using glue-ins from ground-up? I haven't been able to find much info on this approach after much scouring.

My thought is to buy a rack of ClimbTech removable anchors (expensive) to climb ground up on hooks as usual, and drill and place the removable anchors as temporary pro a la cams, then drill and glue-in top anchors with quick-curing glue e.g., HY-200, hang out and wait for the anchors to cure, then lower off and clean the removable anchors from the holes and replace them with glue-ins as you descend.

FYI, I am planning on using Titan Ti glue ins for this development in a highly corrosive environment. I would prefer to use RE-500 over HY-200, but if logistics favor HY-200 for the quick cure time, then I can see that argument.

Anyways -- anyone here have much experience with this? Is there a feasible lower-budget alternative to buying a boatload of Climbtech removable anchors, considering they are basically $70 apiece?

Why do you need to go ground up?

Because the cliff is several pitches tall and it's not practical to pioneer new lines from the top down. Not to mention that access to the top of the cliff is extremely difficult.

another option to the removable bolts would be the legacy sleeve bolts. They're supposed to be pretty easy to remove later.

eli poss wrote:another option to the removable bolts would be the legacy sleeve bolts. They're supposed to be pretty easy to remove later.

That was my original thought, but it was my understanding that they the legacy bolt has been discontinued and are sold out from every supplier...? Or perhaps I heard wrong?

IIRC, Legacy bolts are removable, not reusable. Once you place and remove them once, then they are retired.

cashmab wrote: access to the top of the cliff is extremely difficult.

fixed lines from the top or a ton of money for removable pro, take your pick

cashmab wrote:Because the cliff is several pitches tall and it's not practical to pioneer new lines from the top down. Not to mention that access to the top of the cliff is extremely difficult.

Is it a fully or mostly bolted route? If so...make the effort to find the top. Are you putting up all of the pitches? There are plenty of people who put up fully bolted multi-pitch routes on rappel. Going top down with a static will save you tons of money and you will be able to put up likely a much better route without a half inch hole every other bolt you place.

Alan Doak wrote:IIRC, Legacy bolts are removable, not reusable. Once you place and remove them once, then they are retired.

Exactly. Know what you're doing before you set off to put up a route. Make it worth the effort. RB's leave a half inch hole behind and really are only used when super necessary when other pro isn't available to get you in close to the wall. Legacy bolts are not the same as an RB, they are stainless sleeve bolts that are meant to be climbed on and when the need to replace them is apparent, you can reuse the hole. Not the same thing...not used for bolting.

cashmab wrote: My thought is to buy a rack of ClimbTech removable anchors (expensive) to climb ground up on hooks as usual, and drill and place the removable anchors as temporary pro a la cams, then drill and glue-in top anchors with quick-curing glue e.g., HY-200, hang out and wait for the anchors to cure, then lower off and clean the removable anchors from the holes and replace them with glue-ins as you descend.

Is this a joke? At the very least you need 24hrs to let the epoxy dry.

Blake,

I take it you haven't read the specs on very many products used for glue-ins these days? I have routinely rappelled off of glue-ins placed with Powers AC100+ Gold 45 minutes prior. According to the manufacturer they are FULL strength after 45 minutes at 68 degrees. To err on the side of extreme caution I typically tell people at the crag to wait 90 minutes after I'm done before getting on the route.

As for the OP's plan, if you truly can't bolt on rappel then I don't see any problem with your plan, you may waste a couple nozzles that's all. The Legacy bolt is going to be the better option IMO vs. buying that many RB's. I think the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to reuse them, but honestly I don't see a reason not to. I have for bolting purposes only (not for other people to climb on.) I typically will use them so that I can put anchors on a route while rap bolting it, then I come back later to replace them with glue-ins. Be sure to clean the threads on any sand before you use them again. You can shoot Climb Tech an email to get their opinion on using them for this if you want, they are usually pretty good about getting back to you.

Alan Doak wrote:IIRC, Legacy bolts are removable, not reusable. Once you place and remove them once, then they are retired.

I had wondered about this with the legacy bolts. If they are indeed not reusable, I'm not going to act contrary to the manufacturer's guidelines.

T Roper wrote: fixed lines from the top or a ton of money for removable pro, take your pick

while 1000 feet of fixed static isn't exactly cheap, it may make more sense ultimately.

Blake Cash wrote: Is it a fully or mostly bolted route? If so...make the effort to find the top. Are you putting up all of the pitches? There are plenty of people who put up fully bolted multi-pitch routes on rappel. Going top down with a static will save you tons of money and you will be able to put up likely a much better route without a half inch hole every other bolt you place. Exactly. Know what you're doing before you set off to put up a route. Make it worth the effort. RB's leave a half inch hole behind and really are only used when super necessary when other pro isn't available to get you in close to the wall. Legacy bolts are not the same as an RB, they are stainless sleeve bolts that are meant to be climbed on and when the need to replace them is apparent, you can reuse the hole. Not the same thing...not used for bolting. Is this a joke? At the very least you need 24hrs to let the epoxy dry.

They would likely be fully bolted routes, yes. I don't necessarily agree that the route would be of better quality going top down. I have found that top down routes become far more contrived than following the natural flow of a line that can be more readily discovered from the ground up. Just my humble opinion based on my personal experience.

Also, the thought was to use the holes from the RB's as the holes for the glue ins, as opposed to drilling duplicate or extraneous holes.

HY-200 cures to full strength in 30 minutes at the temperatures I'd be working at.

Ground up is just way more badass.

I get up by any means, hooks, rivets, removable hardware store bolts etc or even just climb up tradding it. Then rap down and check things out and then bolt going back up, I don´t use RE500 anyway, just a good quality vinylester but you need a cool day/slow resin/be quick and organised with your drilling and installing. Store the resin in the fridge overnight and in a cool pack helps extend the glueing time. Alternatively I just use glass capsules.

cashmab wrote: while 1000 feet of fixed static isn't exactly cheap, it may make more sense ultimately.

You dont need 1000' of static. Just hike to the top, rap down and place the belay stations as you go. Bring a few 60 or 70m ropes and fix them to the belay stations on the way down. Then on the way back up you jug the fixed lines.

Would it be feasible to establish the line on more conventional (but removable) hardware and then immediately replace it with glue ins? Use something like the Fixe Triplex or even rivets on lead. I could imagine this working really well in a team of 3. One leading, one belaying, and one jugging and replacing the hardware with glue-ins. Probably much cheaper than all those climbtech anchors, and you don't need to drill as big a hole on lead.

I second the Fixe Triplex: fixehardware.com/shop/bolts…

manuel rangel wrote:I second the Fixe Triplex: fixehardware.com/shop/bolts…

IF you use the Triplex just make sure you use a 12mm bit and NOT a 1/2" bit. Those bolts are weak when placed in 1/2" holes and while they will hold bodyweight, they might not hold a fall especially if loaded in tension.

Yep, Triplex are the way to go. Real, super strong bolts, and very very easy to remove. As 20kN said, use 12mm bits, do NOT use 1/2" bits!!

Use a 12mm hole hanger, then when you want to pull the bolt, all you do is loosen the nut and yank with a quickdraw. Super easy, and the bolts are re-usable.

Then you'll come back and drill out the hole to 14mm for the Eterna bolts.

For those in non-seaside environments, stick with 12mm, drill the hole a little deeper for the glue-ins if necessary (or drill the right depth to begin with), and you'll probably need to notch the rock surface if using standard glue-ins.

Then you need to use either a standard glue-in bolt like Fixe, Petzl, 10mm solid leg Bolt Product glue-ins, etc, or the 12mm version of the Twisted Leg bolts. You can NOT use Wave bolts or the Twisted-Leg bolts that Jim Titt makes for the US (they have an extra bend to fit 1/2" holes not 12mm). You could surely get 12mm Twisted-Leg from Jim Titt by request.

If it's warm climate, watch out on the set time of HY-200, it's not a good choice for warmer climates since it will set up REALLY fast when it's hot.

20 kN wrote: You dont need 1000' of static. Just hike to the top, rap down and place the belay stations as you go. Bring a few 60 or 70m ropes and fix them to the belay stations on the way down. Then on the way back up you jug the fixed lines.

I've thought about this, and it may be a good, relatively easy option. The main drawback I see with it is that even equipping a handful of belay stations top down along a multipitch line is somewhat of a gamble in terms of locating the optimal locations of the stations with respect to the line you are trying to bolt. It gets back to the argument against top down bolting as having a tendency to force a line that doesn't necessarily flow naturally (unless the belay stations are merely treated as temporary anchors for further exploratory purposes, I suppose). I would like to minimize establishing temporary anchors to the greatest extent practicable though.

I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking it. I think I just need to get out there and see what happens.

Greg Barnes wrote:Yep, Triplex are the way to go. Real, super strong bolts, and very very easy to remove. As 20kN said, use 12mm bits, do NOT use 1/2" bits!! Use a 12mm hole hanger, then when you want to pull the bolt, all you do is loosen the nut and yank with a quickdraw. Super easy, and the bolts are re-usable. Then you'll come back and drill out the hole to 14mm for the Eterna bolts. For those in non-seaside environments, stick with 12mm, drill the hole a little deeper for the glue-ins if necessary (or drill the right depth to begin with), and you'll probably need to notch the rock surface if using standard glue-ins. Then you need to use either a standard glue-in bolt like Fixe, Petzl, 10mm solid leg Bolt Product glue-ins, etc, or the 12mm version of the Twisted Leg bolts. You can NOT use Wave bolts or the Twisted-Leg bolts that Jim Titt makes for the US (they have an extra bend to fit 1/2" holes not 12mm). You could surely get 12mm Twisted-Leg from Jim Titt by request. If it's warm climate, watch out on the set time of HY-200, it's not a good choice for warmer climates since it will set up REALLY fast when it's hot.

Larry, manuel, 20kN, and Greg -- I really like this plan. This is the kind of thing I was hoping for. Great info.

Yes, I would have to notch to recess the Eternas after reaming with a 14mm bit.

Thanks for the heads up about the HY-200. I haven't actually used that adhesive before, so I was wondering if it becomes difficult to work with in higher temps.

Thanks all for the great feedback -- really appreciate the collective insight. I'll probably try to dredge this thread later on and post up a report and pics of how things went. I'm super pumped about this project.