Sport climbing with newbie

EthanC wrote:As zabadoo says, especially on vertical or slightly slabby routes, what I usually do is to tie a munter mule (or tie off a gri) after the last climber gets up top, and then instead of lowering them, you walk up to the anchors using them as a counterweight (helps if they're heavy) and as you climb/walk you are lowering them to the ground. Once you're up top you go indirect, lower them the rest of the way as necessary, and clean and rappel. If you have any questions about this method, this is not the right method.

Ah hah...now I get what they were trying to say. That makes a little more sense. Not something I'm likely to do, I'd probably just reclimb the pitch if my partner could not clean the anchor, but at least it makes some sense now.

I learned it from a guide taking tourists out in the Red, he had the option of saving the 300lb guy for last, practically walked up the wall like old timey batman and robin.

EthanC wrote:I learned it from a guide taking tourists out in the Red, he had the option of saving the 300lb guy for last, practically walked up the wall like old timey batman and robin.

Funny, that's where I learned it too.

EthanC wrote:As zabadoo says, especially on vertical or slightly slabby routes, what I usually do is to tie a munter mule (or tie off a gri) after the last climber gets up top, and then instead of lowering them, you walk up to the anchors using them as a counterweight (helps if they're heavy) and as you climb/walk you are lowering them to the ground. Once you're up top you go indirect, lower them the rest of the way as necessary, and clean and rappel. If you have any questions about this method, this is not the right method.

Oh....like csproul, I get it now. The original explanation was a bit sparse to easily understand.
BTW, it's "...go in direct..." not "...go indirect...", which has a very different, nonsensical meaning.

TSluiter wrote:Can't forget to tie that hair up either, hippies.

Don't forget to extend your rappel, hipsters (and Santa)!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=J9YrU…

Elliott Balsley wrote:Recently, when taking a new climber out to a sport route, I realized a little challenge. I led, then I belayed him on top rope. At that point, he has to either clean the anchor and rappel, or I have to send it again. So I came up with this plan instead: I lead, then belay them from the top. Now we're both at the top, so I can show them how to clean the anchor and switch to rappel. What do you think of this idea?

take the time to make sure your newbie climbing partners are trained in cleaning the anchors

not only will it save you work in the long run

it will help making sure these new climbers have the BASIC SKILLS and practice them ... and dont just end up as clueles gym bangers at the crag

thats all there is to it

;)

bearbreeder wrote: take the time to make sure your newbie climbing partners are trained in cleaning the anchors not only will it save you work in the long run it will help making sure these new climbers have the BASIC SKILLS and practice them ...

In the Schoolroom area of Maple Canyon, there are a pair of bolts with chains at shoulder height on a detached, unclimbed lump of choss for just this purpose. There is also a set at the popular teaching area in Skaha. There are no doubt others. I once saw a guide/instructor who had a board that he could lash to a tee, the board containing a standard bolted anchor setup.

Agree with above posters, they need to learn to clean anchors. "Clueless gym bangers" lol

If the route is hard enough that you are too tired for another lap, your partners are good enough climbers to learn to clean the draws.

Maybe it's someone that only ever wants to go climbing once, and you don't need to teach them. In that case, the route you are on will be probably be easy enough that you can run another quick lap (even if you are tired) and grab your gear.

Or if it's a busy crag, and folks are waiting for the route, you might ask the next party on deck to swap out your draws(or sling & locking biner setup of choice) for you. Chances are they will be happy to do this since then they can get on the route more quickly.

Ethan, that would have been either Brian or myself. It works quite well, some things to keep in mind are that the route needs to be more or less straight up and down, the weight of you and your partner, and that it shouldn't be done on anything overhanging. It's an advanced technique that I wouldn't necessarily recommend to the average climbing group.

Marc801 wrote: In the Schoolroom area of Maple Canyon, there are a pair of bolts with chains at shoulder height on a detached, unclimbed lump of choss for just this purpose. There is also a set at the popular teaching area in Skaha. There are no doubt others. I once saw a guide/instructor who had a board that he could lash to a tee, the board containing a standard bolted anchor setup.

Even better, a rock that is not much for climbing, but would take gear, too. Put some fixed anchors on it, and folks could practice sport and trad both. Hey! Get the local Parks and recreation or university folks to slap one of these in town.

I am very pleased to report that the local university gym is working toward teaching not just cleaning anchors, but also building them (currently getting all their staff up to speed and building their procedures). They are doing right by the people who climb there. Yay! Cause these are my friends, and a super nice group of people.

Marc801 wrote: Oh....like csproul, I get it now. The original explanation was a bit sparse to easily understand. BTW, it's "...go in direct..." not "...go indirect...", which has a very different, nonsensical meaning.

You know what, in all the years I've been climbing I never thought about that. I guess when I did think about it I assumed it meant indirectly attached to the belayer or something. Hmm, you learn something every day.

Marc801 wrote: Ethan, that would have been either Brian or myself. It works quite well, some things to keep in mind are that the route needs to be more or less straight up and down, the weight of you and your partner, and that it shouldn't be done on anything overhanging. It's an advanced technique that I wouldn't necessarily recommend to the average climbing group.

Ive done this to clean steeply overhanging routes that a partner led but I agree it's generally a bad idea. Point taken about suggesting it to the general population. Don't do this, folks!

I do one of two things. I either skip taking the newb to a crag that requires basic rope handling/rapp skills or I take them to a crag where it is socially acceptable to lower of the installed hardware.

EthanC wrote: Ive done this to clean steeply overhanging routes that a partner led but I agree it's generally a bad idea. Point taken about suggesting it to the general population. Don't do this, folks!

I realize that I'm drifting slightly off topic here but since I started the "counter balance belay" rabbit trail, I feel less guilty about it.

As I consider myself a noob, and I have executed this technique (with the wife on some slab in the RRG). I guess I am wondering, what are the potential risks that I assume I am missing?

It seems to me that the risks are relatively low but the necessity of doing it is essentially zero. Is that why many of the folks here consider it a bad idea?

Zabadoo wrote: I realize that I'm drifting slightly off topic here but since I started the "counter balance belay" rabbit trail, I feel less guilty about it. As I consider myself a noob, and I have executed this technique (with the wife on some slab in the RRG). I guess I am wondering, what are the potential risks that I assume I am missing? It seems to me that the risks are relatively low but the necessity of doing it is essentially zero. Is that why many of the folks here consider it a bad idea?

The general guideline caution for this technique is: You really better know what you're doing because you'll be basically climbing with your partner tied off and both of you suspended by how good your rigging is. If your munter slips or your gri-gri isn't locked off or you get stuck, you're now both off the ground at best or rapidly on the ground at worst.

For overhangs: If they have top roped the route, then it should be fairly obvious why this is a bad idea, their counterweight will pull you away from the wall and if you do fall you're going for a nice swing, hopefully no trees behind you. If they led the route, and you are cleaning the draws off, it can be kind of helpful but observe the caution above.

I always just taught them on the ground on a shorter route I can watch what they are doing. If they don't feel right up there or I see them not having it done right I lower them back down and just climb it again.

It isn't that complex to do, key things is make sure they know how to tie in and don't drop the rope. Pretty hard to screw up if you don't do those two things. Just make sure they have something like a PAS (some kinda sling with 2 biners, wouldn't trust a new person with a knot that if they screw up they die) etc so you can test make sure they are 100% weighted on the rope and they will be good to go.

Just make sure you don't do a route where you can't see the anchors or it is like 100ft up for their first one.