Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

Maybe this will finish off the page. I have only commented a couple of times ever on MP. It seems that the same people comment over and over on most posts.

These professional posters may only have a few occupations to have the time to put in this much energy.

1. They are on welfare, I guess the government is now even subsidizing computers and internet..

2. They live at home still with their parents and their parents are out working for them.

3. They have a job and go everyday but they spend the whole day on MP, so their company pays them to post on MP.

If they put this much energy and work into their job and career they would actually retire early and/or have more time off because they are efficient.
If they claim that they are already retired they are lying because they would be out climbing everyday and wouldn't give a F about being on MP all day everyday..

brianszero wrote:Maybe this will finish off the page. I have only commented a couple of times ever on MP. It seems that the same people comment over and over on most posts. These professional posters may only have a few occupations to have the time to put in this much energy. 1. They are on welfare, I guess the government is now even subsidizing computers and internet.. 2. They live at home still with their parents and their parents are out working for them. 3. They have a job and go everyday but they spend the whole day on MP, so their company pays them to post on MP. If they put this much energy and work into their job and career they would actually retire early and/or have more time off because they are efficient. If they claim that they are already retired they are lying because they would be out climbing everyday and wouldn't give a F about being on MP all day everyday..

You do realize its raining up here and we have reception at da crag here?

Jobs, career? LOL

What yuppie place do you climb at

;)

I'm on welfare and I have a job! Oh and I live above my dad's garage not the basement smarty pants!

bearbreeder wrote: now walk around your gym tonight and see how many folks are using the grigri "properly" as per petzls instructions ... with 10mm gym ropes i bet more than half are constantly using the "fast feed" method which is NOT recommended by petzl for constant feeding ... and keeping their hand holding the grigri most the time, again NOT recommended unless "fast feeding"

Pretty sure it's closer to 90% of folks have their thumb on the trigger all the time... but I'm sure they are all expert users :-)

Oh your out there in the real stuff with reception at the crag..(:
Even in yuppie gunks we don't have reception.

brianszero wrote:Maybe this will finish off the page. I have only commented a couple of times ever on MP. It seems that the same people comment over and over on most posts. These professional posters may only have a few occupations to have the time to put in this much energy. 1. They are on welfare, I guess the government is now even subsidizing computers and internet.. 2. They live at home still with their parents and their parents are out working for them. 3. They have a job and go everyday but they spend the whole day on MP, so their company pays them to post on MP. If they put this much energy and work into their job and career they would actually retire early and/or have more time off because they are efficient. If they claim that they are already retired they are lying because they would be out climbing everyday and wouldn't give a F about being on MP all day everyday..

You mad bro?

brianszero wrote:Oh your out there in the real stuff with reception at the crag..(: Even in yuppie gunks we don't have reception.

Joined 2014 and doesn't know where the reception is in the gunks.

Step your game up bro!

At this point...

youtube.com/watch?v=s7qFuhF…

youtube.com/watch?v=aVpsMmH…

youtube.com/watch?v=xQCkz66…

youtube.com/watch?v=fs_kdGe…

But especially this one.

youtube.com/watch?v=YIOGYAd…

Senior Hernandez wrote:The denial of the safety features of auto locking devices seems beyond childish and actually dangerous. Safety features are good, and everyone denying that seems rather insane.

The world is a complex place, and the behavior that emerges is often not what was intended!

A device with a long list of safety features sounds safer than one that doesn't. It makes some sense to reason that it is in fact safer.

But all our reasoning doesn't change what happens in the real world. Throughout the world people come to sensible conclusions, only to find that the data doesn't agree.

What actually happens universally trumps what you think should happen.

So...If someone asks me which is safer, a munter hitch or a grigri2, I'm going to have to say I'm not really sure I'll need to see some evidence.

Senior Hernandez wrote:I practice and emphasize correct belaying for all my climbing posse in the last 15 years, so all my partners belay correctly. Because they do, they are safer Belayers than you, and that is a fact you troglodyte.

So none of you have dropped or been dropped in 15 years? If so, great and it means you probably 'get it'. As for being safer than me, I've likely done more belaying than your entire posse combined, check back when you pass forty years without an incident.

Healyje wrote: Devices aren't 'safe' and there is nothing 'safer' about autoblockers.

A GriGri can lock without user intervention in an emergency, an ATC cannot. Hundreds if not thousands of climbers have been saved by this feature including myself. There have been several recorded instances of belayers getting knocked out by rock fall and the GriGri saved the day. The problem is that there are so many lazy and complacent belayers who use the GriGri, which results in an abnormally high number of injuries relating to the device. But that's not the fault of the device, that's the fault of the user. All things equal, assuming a belayer who is equally skilled in both the GriGri and ATC, the GriGri will be a safer option in most cases.

20 kN wrote:A GriGri can lock without user intervention in an emergency, an ATC cannot. Hundreds if not thousands of climbers have been saved by this feature including myself. There have been several recorded instances of belayers getting knocked out by rock fall and the GriGri saved the day.

Again, the incidents of autoblockers 'saving' someone in a ratio to people being dropped is vanishingly small.

20 kN wrote:The problem is that there are so many lazy and complacent belayers who use the GriGri, which results in an abnormally high number of injuries relating to the device. But that's not the fault of the device, that's the fault of the user.

Exactly. But what you're not getting is that grigri use, by its design, promotes and encourages laziness and complacency.

20 kN wrote:All things equal, assuming a belayer who is equally skilled in both the GriGri and ATC, the GriGri will be a safer option in most cases.

I agree in terms of protection against rare belayer-out incidents, but unfortunately all things are hardly ever equal these days and 'skilled' is not necessarily an easy commodity to come by. If it were, then there wouldn't be all the dropping.

I show this video, The World's Worst Belayer, by Petzl to my students after I've taught them belaying to reinforce the concepts. The humor is cheesy, but the students like it. The child in question could have been doing any of these things.

youtube.com/watch?v=V9hsWjA…

Healyje wrote: Again, the incidents of autoblockers 'saving' someone in a ratio to people being dropped is vanishingly small. Exactly. But what you're not getting is that grigri use, by its design, promotes and encourages laziness and complacency. I agree in terms of protection against rare belayer-out incidents, but unfortunately all things are hardly ever equal these days and 'skilled' is not necessarily an easy commodity to come by. If it were, then there wouldn't be all the dropping.

You sir are a true pessimist and full of it(BS ratios/stats)

I personally(not through the internet) know of two people saved by the grigri's ability to auto lock after rock fall. One belayer was killed, one had his shoulder almost ripped off by a rock. I know of nobody(except through the internet) who has been dropped.

Maybe its time to step away from the internet? Or do people in your circle get dropped a lot?

20 kN wrote: A GriGri can lock without user intervention in an emergency, an ATC cannot. Hundreds if not thousands of climbers have been saved by this feature including myself.

I'm another one... and one of my friends is as well.

Healy, you're wrong and your own posts prove it... You've been so spun around in this forum that you've stated the gri autolock isn't an added safety feature and then in the next few posts gone on to say it only saves a small number of people a year. And that number I suspect is much higher than you care to admit as these incidents aren't reported because no one was hurt. Seriously, how could you contradict your self any more than this?

I get your logic that that safety feature is being misjudged by noobs but that doesn't make it NOT a valuable safety feature that should be encouraged to be used over a non autolocking device. You're logic here is totally flawed.

If what Healy claims is true, how does one explain that the few surveys that do exist actually indicate that the vast majority of drops are with a tube style device?

Here is my experience:
1. Use a Gri about 80% of time for 20+ years and haven't dropped anyone.
2. Been dropped twice by inattentive belayer very early in my career, both times with an ATC.
3. Been dropped recently with a Gri. It was by an experienced old fart who never used a Gri, but wanted to try it out. It was his first attempt at using the device.

Healyje wrote: Again, the incidents of autoblockers 'saving' someone in a ratio to people being dropped is vanishingly small.

I'd appreciate someone proving or disproving this. I'd be very interested in accidents per hours of usage for different belay device types, maybe somewhere someone in the DAV has compiled this?

You can call BS on Healyje all you want, but if its just anecdotal experience then you are proving nothing more than he is.

r m wrote: I'd appreciate someone proving or disproving this. I'd be very interested in accidents per hours of usage for different belay device types, maybe somewhere someone in the DAV has compiled this? You can call BS on Healyje all you want, but if its just anecdotal experience then you are proving nothing more than he is.

Except that his logic is flawed and he's contradicting himself... No study needed. I guess my question is how can you study times when someone has been spared harm from an autolocking device? I don't think you can and I think taking anecdotal evidence is sound. Esp when proper training and complacency is the cause of incidents with the gri, not a mechanical malfunction.

There is a plethora of us (each with decades of climbing exp) speaking up right here where the use of a gri has saved us from bodily harm that would have likely otherwise occurred with an ATC. There seems to be a noticeable lack of folks who are speaking up about being dropped by someone using a gri. Given the sampling here, however anecdotal, it would seem Healy is incorrect in his assumption that its such a small number.

Climbing friend,

May your internet wang slapping continue well beyond 100 pages!!!

Morgan Patterson wrote: There is a plethora of us (each with decades of climbing exp) speaking up right here where the use of a gri has saved us from bodily harm that would have likely otherwise occurred with an ATC. There seems to be a noticeable lack of folks who are speaking up about being dropped by someone using a gri. Given the sampling here, however anecdotal, it would seem Healy is incorrect in his assumption that its such a small number.

here's another anecdote to disprove Healyje. The only time I have ever been dropped it was with an ATC, and a grigri would have saved me for sure (belayer let go with both hands while lowering me, yeah I know, my fault for trusting someone to belay me who I didn't know).