Another Autoblock belay failure leading to serious hurt

BB: "projections bill? ... i never implied you were incompetent, youre experienced enough to do the basic checks "

Basic checks? That simply can not be your definition of competency.

FrankPS wrote: I would choose hiring a guide or climbing with someone very experienced over learning from Mountain Project. There is some interesting and informative stuff here sometimes, but it's no substitute for learing in the field from someone. First, don't lose control of the rope. Some things you can't make mistakes on, because it may cost a life. Like making sure you thread the rope correctly for rappel. Wearing belay gloves would help if you screw up enough to lose control of the rope. But mopping the kitchen is still worthy endeavor! Edit: Oh, Marc said almost the same thing while I was typing this one. Marc nailed it.

DID you choose hiring a guide when you started out, or have Yoda show you the Way?? Hate to break it to the you, but there are a whole lotta climbers out there just kinda learning as they go, with whomever can afford to buy a rope first. And, I think that may have been true BITD, too. Oh, horrors! : )

All righty, I'll go be a drudge now. I'm suspicious that you don't have an answer anyway! Thanks for wasting time with me!

Old lady H wrote: DID you choose hiring a guide when you started out, or have Yoda show you the Way?? Hate to break it to the you, but there are a whole lotta climbers out there just kinda learning as they go, with whomever can afford to buy a rope first. And, I think that may have been true BITD, too. Oh, horrors! : ) All righty, I'll go be a drudge now. I'm suspicious that you don't have an answer anyway! Thanks for wasting time with me!

I started with a guide 17 years ago. And still use one about once a year.

Bill Lawry wrote:"projections bill? ... i never implied you were incompetent, youre experienced enough to do the basic checks " Basic checks? That simply can not be your definition of competency.

well if you dont do the basic checks then youre not very competent

and that includes looking around quickly to see if you got everything BEFORE heading up a multi ... so you dont waste time increasing the objective risks on a long multi route ... such as constantly having to lower back down because you keep forgetting shiet

as i said i assume yr competent enough not to always leave your gear behind

but yr basically arguing that its OK for folks to forget their basic gear at the base and to lower em back down over and over again

BB: "but yr basically arguing that its OK for folks to forget their basic gear at the base and to lower em back down over and over again"

That may be the key. I mention it happening once with a buddy and you assume it happened over and over.

Edit: ... or you are assuming I am okay with it happening over and over all because I mentioned a time it happened. Yes?

Bill Lawry wrote:BB: "but yr basically arguing that its OK for folks to forget their basic gear at the base and to lower em back down over and over again" That may be the key. I mention it happening once with a buddy and you assume it happened over and over.

nice we getting into senseless MP arguments over semantics at this point

i said simply

folks ... do you find the need to lower folks all the time on multipitch??? ... if so i suggest that you either climb with competent folks, or if they are competent use a belay system that isnt the autoblock for that particular pitch

when using the autoblock lowering anything more than say a foot or two should be an exceptionally RARE case


and then you gave the example of your buddy and the water bottle ... you didnt exactly say it was a "one off" deal there

i stand by my statements .... if yr always lowering folks over and over again on multi off top belays something is wrong

exclusions apply for lowering for pendulums (ie aid), lowering rather than rapping, downclimbing as i indicated before

or yr projecting something thats so runnout or baddass hard that you cant do it ground up ... which wouldnt be a popular trade route multi normal folks climb

either way in those exceptions you shouldnt be using autoblock anyways

its that simple

why everyone wants to lower all the time on multi is beyond me

Old lady H wrote: DID you choose hiring a guide when you started out, or have Yoda show you the Way?? Hate to break it to the you, but there are a whole lotta climbers out there just kinda learning as they go, with whomever can afford to buy a rope first. And, I think that may have been true BITD, too. Oh, horrors!

BITD the most common means of learning (in the Northeast, in particular the Gunks - I don't have learning to climb experience in other areas) were

• college outing clubs who had more senior members who knew what they were doing and were ultra-safe. In my case, RUOC, but there was also MITOC, Cornell, Yale, et al
• mentors - in my case (I'll save the blatant name dropping) they were all solid 5.8 or better climbers [remember, this was a time before 5.11 existed - and many of those 8's have modern grades in the 10's]
• clubs like the AMC

There were very few professional guides at the time, and no guiding services at the Gunks.

BB: "nice we getting into senseless MP arguments over semantics at this point"

No - not senseless. you strongly implied me and / or my buddy were incompetent when all I said was my buddy once was lowered to get a water bottle. It was in your reply. I take exception.

I think most of what you say is good. Like, do not release from guide mode unless you are competent at it.

Asking to be lowered is not a crime. Incompetent lowering is the real issue.

By the way, I climbed a huge route once as a threesome. We used ATCs in guide mode. None of us felt competent with releasing under load at the time. We agreed the night before that there would be no lowering while the rope was loaded. We had a great day,

Bill Lawry wrote:BB: "nice we getting into senseless MP arguments over semantics at this point" No - not senseless. you strongly implied me and / or my buddy were incompetent when all I said was my buddy once was lowered to get a water bottle. It was in your reply. I take exception. I think most of what you say is good. Like, do not release from guide mode unless you are competent at it. Asking to be lowered is not a crime. Incompetent lowering is the real issue. By the way, I climbed a huge route once as a threesome. We used ATCs in guide mode. None of us felt competent with releasing under load at the time. We agreed the night before that there would be no lowering while the rope was loaded. We had a great day,

oh dear bill did you miscontrue what i said and get hurt feelings off the intrawebz ...

perhaps you were LUCKY that you were on a pitch that allows you to lower safely to get that water bottle? .... an overhang or traverse may not allow you that luxury

why in the world are folks constantly asking to be lowered on a multi????

so let me get this straight ... you belayed 2 followers on autoblock without feeling competent enough to release it under load ... which is the cornerstone of escaping the belay and simple self rescue????

unfortunately sometimes events, not your prior agreements, determine whether one needs to be lowered off autoblock

im going to suggest straight out that you not belay folks on autoblock, especially 2 followers which complicated self rescue even more until you are decently practiced in lowering folks on autoblock ... or at the very least be able to transition under full load to a better lowering system

im not calling you incompetent for that ... simply bad judgement especially if you were the leader

let me ask you a simple question ... yr top belaying 2 followers in autoblock as in yr climb and one of them is hurt and cant go up ... both are stuck mid pitch with one 30 ft above the other ...

lets keep it simple and the climb is straight down ... the hurt climber might need immediate medical attention and is immobile or unconscious (assume they got hit by a rock) ...

you have good communication with the unhurt climber (assume they are the top one)

whats yr plan?

We disagree then. Outside of the current issue of lowering, we had three competent leaders. If a person got into difficulty there is always ascending the rope and / or another person and free line with belay to help out.

Do you normally climb in situations where you are the only one who can deal with issues like this?

More in a bit on "my plan"

Uninjured person ascends rope. That strand is now free for self-rescue. Either person at top can then rap to injured and help.

Your answer to my question? Do you usually climb with people who can not get out of the scenario you constructed?

Bill Lawry wrote:We disagree then. Outside of the current issue of lowering, we had three competent leaders. If a person got into difficulty there is always ascending the rope and / or another person and free line with belay to help out. Do you normally climb in situations where you are the only one who can deal with issues like this? More in a bit on "my plan"

bill you need to ASSUME youre the only member who can deal with it as the top belayer ... ive had experienced partners get their hands shut down because they werent used to climbing multi in november ...

basically the were so out of it due to conditions that i had to help them tie a clove hitch ... their hands were shaking

ive seen folks whove been climbing for years freeze up when the chips were down ... and folks who took "self rescue courses" who couldnt remember all the skills when it counted

especially if you climb with different partners all the time ... you NEED to assume that you may have to do most or all the rescue work yourself

a "competent" leader doesnt mean anything if things go wrong if he cant self rescue which requires keeping those skills current

Bill Lawry wrote:Uninjured person ascends rope. That strand is now free for self-rescue. Either person at top can then rap to injured and help. Your answer to my question? Do you usually climb with people who can not get out of the scenario you constructed?

how exactly will you unload the loaded line thats on autoblock to get the immobile injured climber down ....

that guy is dangling there still and the weight is fully on the autoblock

this is a very basic self rescue scenario especially if yr "competent" enough to bring up 2 followers

give me the itemized steps ... and yes self rescue needs to be that well thought out as if you miss a step in the belay escapes you might need to cut the rope/sling or even worse screw it all up

BB: "bill you need to ASSUME youre the only member who can deal with it as the top belayer ... ive had experienced partners get their hands shut down because they werent used to climbing multi in november ... "

This was in July on a day with a great forecast. We each had puffy jackets but they never came out.

You know, I can be on top and injured as well, right?

Bill Lawry wrote:BB: "bill you need to ASSUME youre the only member who can deal with it as the top belayer ... ive had experienced partners get their hands shut down because they werent used to climbing multi in november ... " This was in July on a day with a great forecast. We each had puffy jackets but they never came out. You know, I can be on top and injured as well, right?

oh dear bill are you assuming the "best" case scenarios and that youll never need to "lower" or "self rescue"

of course you can be injured as well ... which is why when my achilles was torn a few years back i went off and practiced it in the rain with a bum leg ...

partner a few years ago who wanted to come out and do self rescue in the rain with me ..



cmon bill ... as a RESPONSIBLE climber surely you know how to self rescue 2 followers there off the autoblock

lets see the itemized steps for the scenario ...

now there are several ways to do it as long as its as safe as possible and plausible

how exactly will you unload the rope with the immobilized follower without knowing how to release the autoblock?

bearbreeder wrote:how exactly will you unload the loaded line thats on autoblock to get the immobile injured climber down .... that guy is dangling there still and the weight is fully on the autoblock this is a very basic self rescue scenario especially if yr "competent" enough to bring up 2 followers give me the itemized steps

It's doable - not pretty - but doable. But then, we're already in a situation that's not very pretty.

You are prone to specific circumstances and are questioning a specific climb I did. So, first, some details about the climb: six mile hike in; 15 pitches with all of us capable of leading each one; another ~1000 feet of 3rd / 4th class to the tope, 7 1/2 miles back out; no other climbers around.

Since you only asked about dealing with the injured person, I'm assuming you are okay with the other competent follower being able to get down to them relatively efficiently, yes?

Edit: I'd like to know how far back in the scnario you want me to back up from getting the injured person out of that hanging situation.

Bill Lawry wrote: It's doable - not pretty - but doable. But then, we're already in a situation that's not very pretty. You are prone to specific circumstances and are questioning a specific climb I did. So, first, some details about the climb: six mile hike in; 15 pitches with all of us capable of leading each one; another ~1000 feet of 3rd / 4th class to the tope, 7 1/2 miles back out; no other climbers around. Since you only asked about dealing with the injured person, I'm assuming you are okay with the other competent follower being able to get down to them relatively efficiently, yes?

bill first of all ....

- your "good climber" is 30 feet above the injured one ... how exactly will he "get down to the injured climber"?

- the full body weight, less say 150 lb of the injured climber is on the rope ...

- BOTH of the strands are stuck in the ATC guide in autoblock

if you dont know how to self rescue in this case just say so ... im fine with partners admitting they dont know something, its when they try to make excuses that it becomes an issue

as to "scenarios" ... all it takes is one big rock to knock out a second ... heres a belay ledge from a popular moderate multi we did in the rockies this summer ...

as you can see its pretty imperative that you know how to get the second(s) down should one of those rocks peel off and smack em

FrankPS wrote: I started with a guide 17 years ago. And still use one about once a year.

Cool! I'll climb with you and Marc, if you measure up in person and we ever actually meet!

"Pissable" was an apt typo, huh?

Really, most of the new climbers I know are learning mostly from each other, and with my whole one year in, I'm becoming one of the veterans. These are college kids I know from climbing at the local university gym (horrors! Gym climbers!). This gym does a good job teaching, and they are a pretty bright, responsible group, IMHO. But, yes, the experience and knowledge base isn't there-yet-

Thanks again to all of you!

bearbreeder wrote: bill first of all .... - your "good climber" is 30 feet above the injured one ... how exactly will he "get down to the injured climber"? - the full body weight, less say 150 lb of the injured climber is on the rope ... - BOTH of the strands are stuck in the ATC guide in autoblock

Ok - I know where to start. It won't be pretty ...

1) Uninjured climber ascends the rope to the top belay. He can use his prusik cords or klemheist'd slings he picked up while following. If needed, he can back those up by periodically tying an overhand in the trailing rope and lockering that to his belay loop (or opposite-and-opposed biners if he lacks a couple extra locers). Once up there, he anchors in.

I don't know why the uninjured climbers strand is stuck in the ATC Guide. Sounds like some other unlucky but 'convenient' circumstance to me that you haven't explained. But so be it.

2) Cut the uninjured's strand on either side of the ATC Guide. Tie the cut ends back together. Carefully cut in a direction away from the injured's strand.

3) Uninjured second threads belay/rap device just below that knot and ties it off with a mule, etc.. He needs to do this in a way that can eventally take the load of two people (e.g., two symmetric biners with ATC guide in max friction mode). Downward progress may be tedious until then.

4) By now, leader has knotted off the brake strand of the injured climber.

5) Above the knot, the leader puts uninjured second on belay with munter through biner on anchor.

6) Uninjured second releases from anchor and is lowered by leader.

At any point here, if leader runs out of rope for lowering, the uninjured second releases the mule and rappels.

7) The uninjured second stops or is stopped at a point where he can reach down to the injured's belay loop area. Critical thing is the uninjured's belay loop is above the injured's harness. The belay/rap device is then tied off in a load releasable way.

8) If not done, uninjured girths slings / cordalette around the harness tie-ins of the injured.

9) Uninjured secures the other end of the slings / cordalette to his belay loop. This will probably involve a locker or OnO non-lockers. Slack is minimized. Knots are well tied.

10) Uninjured cuts the rope of the injured with fall onto uninjured's belay loop. Yeah - admittedly not pretty and not ideal. Mitigate by friction hitch to injured's tensioned strand to uninjured's harness in a load-releasable way.

11) The secured rap / belay device is released and the pair are lowered back to the previous anchor where the uninjured is secured to the anchor with a load-releasable knot / hitch.

It is indeed better if the leader can release and lower. Since that time, I've satisfied myself I can competently release an ATC Guide. Anyway, I viewed it as significant that all three of us went in with eyes wide open.

Except for the part(s) about cutting the rope strand(s), I'll make the claim that the above is pretty typical self-rescue stuff (although hopefully not typically done!).

bearbreeder wrote:... all it takes is one big rock to knock out a second ... heres a belay ledge from a popular moderate multi we did in the rockies this summer ... as you can see its pretty imperative that you know how to get the second(s) down should one of those rocks peel off and smack em

And here's a photo of the typical rock quality we had (not my photo, not my parties):



You still haven't answered my question about the typical competency of your climbing partners - or I missed it.

I just got a warning message from MP.com that I've posted a bunch and may have to wait before the next one - seriously.

rocknice2 wrote: As soon as you let go of that sling it will go back to guide mode.

If by "go back to guide mode" you mean that it will lock up and arrest the fall, that isn't necessarily true. It might lock up again, it might not. I think that's the important take-away - no, you cannot necessarily rely on simply releasing the sling to arrest your climber's fall, so you better have a system in place to lower safely and prevent the fall and the running rope in the first place.

(I suspect that isn't what you meant, and I suspect we are actually on the same page despite some confusion, I just wanted to clarify for other readers.)

Yet another inane thread about belaying.. what fun. I don't have anything to add but If I type in bold I must be right.

And I lower and work sections on multi pitch all the time.