Another Autoblock belay failure leading to serious hurt

Toad wrote: I'm with you. I just can't see how this would happen. Maybe the belayer was using an odd carabiner (i.e. too small) in the device that minimized the potential friction.

I was replying to Em's post specifically.
Why the climber got dropped, I'd speculate the the belayer just froze up and didn't release the contraption until the climber hit the ledge. It only takes seconds.

rocknice2 wrote: Gravity rotates the belay device into a position that allows the device to go into auto block.

By "gravity rotates the belay device into a position..." you mean the weight of the climber - or to be more specific, gravity acting on the climber in turn pulling on the rope and rotating the device into braking position. If the climber is in free fall, they are not weighting the rope, device, or anything else until they hit the ground or come to the end of the rope.

When a belay device in autoblock/guide mode is released, if the device fully opens and the climber begins to fall, letting go of the sling you used to release it may allow the device to lock up again, or it may not. Many variables are involved. But we've seen through many similar accident reports that you definitely can't rely on it locking up again. Even so, as another poster pointed out, a climber can fall a long distance very quickly and they may hit a ledge or the ground before you can let go of the sling anyway. For me, that is plenty of reason to use a back-up lowering method (such as a munter off the anchor).

"It might lock up again" or "I really feel like it SHOULD lock up again" are not sufficient when your partners life is on the line.

folks ... since its seems some MPers might need some clarification

there are generally 3 major ways to release an ATC guide in autoblock under load

- the biner pump ... this only gives you a few inches but is the "safest" way, generally used when you only needs a few inches of slack to take out a piece or for belay escapes

- using a biner (or other) to lever the bottom hole ... it allows for "some" control as its your wrist/arm strength which opens up the device ... regardless its easy to back it up with a numter or a body belay + knot

- using a sling in the hole ... usually folks then put their arm through the sling, step on it or clip the sling to themselves, in these cased they can apply much more leverage/weight ... and this is quite dangerous unless they add more friction in the system

anyone who practices lowering with an ATC guide or indeed belay escape) will be aware of all 3 methods and be able to do it ... since transferring the load to the anchor is an integral part of escaping the belay as you may need that device ... ie counterbalance rappel or other such back down to your follower

all it takes is about a days worth of practice under REAL load weights to get decently comfortable with each method ...

if you dont know all 3 methods above and cant do it on demand .... you have NO business using the ATC guide in autoblock on a live partner

now how many folks who use the alpine smart can tell me how many methods there are to lower off autoblock with it and its limitations .... the users of the smart should know this in their sleep

Em Cos wrote: By "gravity rotates the belay device into a position..." you mean the weight of the climber - or to be more specific, gravity acting on the climber in turn pulling on the rope and rotating the device into braking position. If the climber is in free fall, they are not weighting the rope, device, or anything else until they hit the ground or come to the end of the rope. When a belay device in autoblock/guide mode is released, if the device fully opens and the climber begins to fall, letting go of the sling you used to release it may allow the device to lock up again, or it may not. Many variables are involved. But we've seen through many similar accident reports that you definitely can't rely on it locking up again. Even so, as another poster pointed out, a climber can fall a long distance very quickly and they may hit a ledge or the ground before you can let go of the sling anyway. For me, that is plenty of reason to use a back-up lowering method (such as a munter off the anchor). "It might lock up again" or "I really feel like it SHOULD lock up again" are not sufficient when your partners life is on the line.

I totally agree with you that comments like 'I feel' or 'it should' are not scientific but they are my opinion and should be treated as such. Others should draw their own conclusions.

I also agree that not backing up a full release of guide more is ludicrous.

I DO mean gravity rotates the device into the proper position for lockup. That is the way it hangs as soon as it's clipped into the anchor. It's the natural position for the device. The weight of the climber is what locks it up.

Toad wrote: I'm with you. I just can't see how this would happen. Maybe the belayer was using an odd carabiner (i.e. too small) in the device that minimized the potential friction.

With respect you are totally incorrect. This is a common accident. That's why the first word in the title of this thread is ANOTHER!

Optimistic wrote: With respect you are totally incorrect. This is a common accident. That's why the first word in the title of this thread is ANOTHER!

I totally agree! Interfering with or improperly using an auto block device has led to many accidents.

I can't think of one indecent where its been shown that a device left to its devices has failed.

Myself (Daniel) and a group of coworkers were out on a weekend climbing trip in the New River Gorge from Sunday 8/25/13 - Monday 8/26/13. We had an excellent day of sport climbing in the Bubba City area on Sunday, but on Monday I had the most intense experience of my life.
The incident report:
A friend (Sean) was attempting to lower me from a belay station at the top of 'Transporter Crack' of the Star Trek wall of the Fern Creek area using an ATC Guide in guide mode, which he failed to backup with a friction knot.
Sean had set up a Black Diamond ATC Guide autoblock device in guide mode to belay Daniel from above. Instead of the climber going indirect to the anchors, getting off belay, and switching to a more practical lowering system to allow another group member to lead it, Sean decided to practice lowering using the autoblock system. Sean threaded a thin sling through the small hole of the device. After tugging up on the sling, Sean redirected it through a carabiner off of one of the bolts. Tension released slowly, then when it finally opened all the way, it inverted creating a basic pulley. When the system finally opened, Daniel began to gain momentum and realizing that the climber was falling, Sean attempted to brake the rope but couldn't hold the weight of the climber and contend with the increasing momentum of the fall. Daniel was slowed by Sean's attempts at braking for the first 10 feet or so, but experienced a virtual free fall for the next 30 feet until he decked onto the dirt covered ground below, which sloped inwards to the wall at roughly a 30 degree angle. Luckily, because of the relatively short distance of the fall, and the fact that Daniel landed on his rear end with his feet sliding downwards on the slope, he was able to hike out of the incident on his own power after his group cleared his spine and checked his vitals. 911 and the park service were contacted and a ranger arrived on the scene to help coordinate local EMS and hiked out with the group. The bruised climber was checked out and cleared by the EMS personnel, chose self transport out of the area and was driven out by fellow group members. He experienced no broken bones or other medical complications.
There were several oversights that caused the accident. First of all, Sean had used the lowering technique before, but never in a situation where a climber was being lowered from the top of a route. Given the fact that Sean had used the technique before for climbers that needed to be lowered only a few feet while on belay, to the best of his knowledge he believed the system would be adequate as a lowering technique in this situation. Not so. Daniel should have gone indirect by clipping in to the anchor as soon as he completed the route, and a more practical lowering system should have been implemented. The lowering technique was in no way necessary, and risky in this type of recreational situation. The primary cause of the fall was that Sean neglected to redirect the brake strand to a carabiner connected to the anchor above the system in order to create a three-to-one braking advantage. The second step neglected was that Sean also did not back up the brake strand with a friction knot made with webbing or cordellette which should have been clipped back to his belay loop.
Moral of the story: Redirect the brake strand through a carabiner connected to the anchor above the system to provide a proper 3-to-1 braking ratio, and provide a safe backup while lowering from above using the ATC guide.

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I was the belayer in the Ape Call accident this past Saturday. Before I give my account, I would just like to say thank you to everyone that assisted. Also, I know that I am going to be ridiculed for whatever I say, but I would like to say that whatever you may say about me or poor judgement from the event has got absolutely nothing on the way that I already feel about what I put my friend/climbing partner through.

I led Ape Call, and belayed my friend to the top of the pitch. I was then going to lower her down, so that another member of our party could climb the pitch. I belayed her using an ATC Guide in autoblock mode. The device was attached directly to the anchor (tree to the right of the top of P1). I thought to switch the belay device over, so that I would lower off of my harness and have the rope re-dirceted through the power point of the anchor, but through poor judgement thought that I would be OK to lower with it in autoblock. To lower her, I girth hitched a sling to the belay biner and re-directed it through the anchor. I then kept by brake hand (left hand) on the brake strand, and used my right to pull on the sling to release tension from the belay device. At first, tension did not release, so I pulled slightly harder and the the rope went through very quickly. The bleay device was set up properly, and at no point did my brake hand let go of the rope. I thought I released the pressure instantly from the sling, but may have been mistaken, or may not have released enough pressure from the sling. I did eventually stop my partner, but not before she hit her head and her hip on the way down. I was able to lower her in a controlled manner the rest of the way to the ground.

Almost instantly there were a number of highly qualified people on scene to help out. Thanks again to everyone that played a part on Saturday, I really cannot thank you enough. I went to the hospital with my partner. She was checked out and they said she was ok, and they helped to clean my brake hand which has some pretty significant rope burns.

I know I exercised poor judgement in this situation by lowering her while still set up in autoblock. I know that many people on this site are going to be quick to chime in about my poor judgement and all the mistakes I made. I know this is going to happen, but I assure you that nothing anyone has to say could possibly make me feel any worse than I already do. Through the years I have spent climbing at the Gunks, all the ambulances that I have heard coming to and from the crag, and even carry outs I have helped with, I never knew what it was like to have the rescue efforts focused on me, now unfortunately I have had the terrible and much worse experience of knowing what it is like to have the rescue efforts focused on your partner, friend, and someone that has put their life in your hands.

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on a personal note one of my climbing partners told me a story of how a candidate was tested on some ACMG exam on lowering off the autoblock .... he did it without any backup and dropped his tester quite a few feet ... i was told he failed ....

T340 wrote:EDIT: I think the title of this thread somewhat misleading? I don't think the auto block device failed-the belayer did.

Rgold addressed this in his post: the title doesn't say the device failed, it says the *belay* (implying the belayer) failed.

So far, the only times I have been "dropped" was when my partner was first working out top belay scenarios, including lowering in guide mode, and we actually went out to practice. Even though the distance was quite short, and I knew it might be coming, the drops were still very, very different from falls. Both of us were sobered by how quickly a rope can get out of control, and I got to experience first hand how rapidly a free fall accelerates. Really freaky scary!

A question, though. As I am one of those people who would try to stop a runaway rope, and hopefully save a climber, are there better or worse ways to do so? Up a multi, or anchored in, I don't see that you'd have any choice but to give up your hand(s), but if you were on the ground, are there options to help in this sort of emergency? Grab hard and fast with both hands and jump up? Stomp/sit on the rope still on the ground? ???

Old lady H wrote:So far, the only times I have been "dropped" was when my partner was first working out top belay scenarios, including lowering in guide mode, and we actually went out to practice. Even though the distance was quite short, and I knew it might be coming, the drops were still very, very different from falls. Both of us were sobered by how quickly a rope can get out of control, and I got to experience first hand how rapidly a free fall accelerates. Really freaky scary! A question, though. As I am one of those people who would try to stop a runaway rope, and hopefully save a climber, are there better or worse ways to do so? Up a multi, or anchored in, I don't see that you'd have any choice but to give up your hand(s), but if you were on the ground, are there options to help in this sort of emergency? Grab hard and fast with both hands and jump up? Stomp/sit on the rope still on the ground? ???

If you are lowering someone in guide mode, and the brake strand is either redirected or tied in a munter to your harness, a "runaway" rope will be extremely unlikely.

FrankPS wrote: If you are lowering someone in guide mode, and the brake strand is either redirected or tied in a munter to your harness, a "runaway" rope will be extremely unlikely.

If no one anywhere ever makes a mistake, and nothing ever goes wrong, right? : )

Old lady H wrote:So far, the only times I have been "dropped" was when my partner was first working out top belay scenarios, including lowering in guide mode, and we actually went out to practice. Even though the distance was quite short, and I knew it might be coming, the drops were still very, very different from falls. Both of us were sobered by how quickly a rope can get out of control, and I got to experience first hand how rapidly a free fall accelerates. Really freaky scary! A question, though. As I am one of those people who would try to stop a runaway rope, and hopefully save a climber, are there better or worse ways to do so? Up a multi, or anchored in, I don't see that you'd have any choice but to give up your hand(s), but if you were on the ground, are there options to help in this sort of emergency? Grab hard and fast with both hands and jump up? Stomp/sit on the rope still on the ground? ???

I have to think lowering your partner in guide mode while you yourself are standing on the ground would be an extremely rare occurence.

rocknice2 wrote: I DO mean gravity rotates the device into the proper position for lockup. That is the way it hangs as soon as it's clipped into the anchor. It's the natural position for the device. The weight of the climber is what locks it up.

I guess I explained it poorly, or misunderstood you, or both. But yes, the weight of the climber supplies the braking force, and a free falling climber is not applying any weight to the device or therefore any braking force to the belay. I think we're really on the same page here.

To sum up: losing control of the belay while attempting to lower in guide mode is a tragically common and well-known failure mode of the device/technique, the consequences of which can be fatal. It is also easily mitigated by using a back-up/separate belay system to lower, such as a munter off the anchor. Best practice dictates this should be done whenever using this device/technique to lower your partner.

Old lady H wrote: If no one anywhere ever makes a mistake, and nothing ever goes wrong, right? : )

Yes, you can make a mistake with serious consequences! Get proper instruction. Not from reading MP threads.

Sorry, I was trying to ask a much more general question: better/worse practices if you find yourself having to "catch" a moving rope, however it happened. RGold's story is what prompted it, but there are plenty of pissible mishaps where our fast hands on a rope could be someone's last chance.

Frank, I'll gently remind you, that to know if you are learning good stuff from someone competent, you need to have enough knowledge to make that judgement yourself! When a group of you get going on here, that's my opportunity to hear a whole bunch of point/counterpoint arguments, complete with 8x10 glossy photos with circles and arrows, and... well, learn, ponder, decide what to try, and what is crap. Or, mop the kitchen. Which would you choose?

bearbreeder wrote: yes bill it does ... all it takes a few seconds to look around before heading off to prevent this ... find a competent partner so yr not always lowering folks back down off a multi ;)

You are pretty big on making assumptions like that - taking things a little too literal and then to extremes beyond that. You are sacrificing accuracy in your responses to promote your agenda. I understand that - it's a worthy cause. I just was not cool with your projections on me.

Old lady H wrote:Sorry, I was trying to ask a much more general question: better/worse practices if you find yourself having to "catch" a moving rope, however it happened. RGold's story is what prompted it, but there are plenty of pissible [sic] mishaps where our fast hands on a rope could be someone's last chance. Frank, I'll gently remind you, that to know if you are learning good stuff from someone competent, you need to have enough knowledge to make that judgement yourself! When a group of you get going on here, that's my opportunity to hear a whole bunch of point/counterpoint arguments, complete with 8x10 glossy photos with circles and arrows, and... well, learn, ponder, decide what to try, and what is crap. Or, mop the kitchen. Which would you choose?

I think you meant possible mishaps, but they may be pissable, too!

In your position, I'd mop the kitchen. After that, I'd find a competent guide and set up some 1:1 instructional sessions where you get to ask a crap-ton of questions. Understand the systems and the underlying concepts - don't try to memorize a bunch of rules to "always" use in all situations, since every situation is different from every other. Climbing is continually dealing with a series of engineering challenges, many similar to one another, but not identical.

Not saying that asking beginnerish questions on MP or other sites is not worthwhile, but it does require a degree of evaluation of the answers, including the source. Having a solid understanding of the concepts really helps in those evaluations and cuts down on the pondering you mention.

Old lady H wrote:Sorry, I was trying to ask a much more general question: better/worse practices if you find yourself having to "catch" a moving rope, however it happened. RGold's story is what prompted it, but there are plenty of pissible mishaps where our fast hands on a rope could be someone's last chance. Frank, I'll gently remind you, that to know if you are learning good stuff from someone competent, you need to have enough knowledge to make that judgement yourself! When a group of you get going on here, that's my opportunity to hear a whole bunch of point/counterpoint arguments, complete with 8x10 glossy photos with circles and arrows, and... well, learn, ponder, decide what to try, and what is crap. Or, mop the kitchen. Which would you choose?

I would choose hiring a guide or climbing with someone very experienced over learning from Mountain Project. There is some interesting and informative stuff here sometimes, but it's no substitute for learing in the field from someone.

First, don't lose control of the rope. Some things you can't make mistakes on, because it may cost a life. Like making sure you thread the rope correctly for rappel. Wearing belay gloves would help if you screw up enough to lose control of the rope.

But mopping the kitchen is still worthy endeavor!

Edit: Oh, Marc said almost the same thing while I was typing this one. Marc nailed it.

Bill Lawry wrote: You are pretty big on making assumptions like that - taking things a little too literal and then to extremes beyond that. You are sacrificing accuracy in your responses to promote your agenda. I understand that - it's a worthy cause. I just wasn't cool with your projections on me.

projections bill? ... i never implied you were incompetent, youre experienced enough to do the basic checks

ive had to bring someone down, rap down and relead a pitch before on a traversing multi because someone forgot something at the ledge ... couldnt lower him back down as it was a 60m pitch and he would have had to place gear on the way back down to prevent swings if he wanted to "TR" it again with poor communication which you couldnt see the person

fortunately it was a fairly safe one to do it on .... and fortunately we were in no rush ... otherwise i would have told the guy something like "we need to get to the top leave that water bottle ... you see those dark clouds ... you can go thirsty and well drink from the thunderstorm on the descent"

hell ive had that same scenario when someone forgot to tie in and i pulled the rope halfway up and they start bleating that theyre not tied in ... same thing i had to rap down that traversing first pitch and relead it

now i try to make sure my partners are competent enough to have been around the rodeo a few times ... that they have everything on em and are tied in and ready to go BEFORE i start leading up ... or at the very least take a few seconds to look around BEFORE heading up

if folks are constantly having to lower someone on multi other than some pitches which may need some downclimbing ... somethings going wrong (stuff like lowering for pendulums, in place of rapping, etc, excluded)

personally i think all this lowering on multi (except for pitches that require some downclimbing) is a symptom of gym climbing, crag banging TR and hangdogging ... screw getting to the top you want to TR that multi so you get raised and lowered over and over again ...

and folks want to be lowered off multi since they dont trust their rapelling

as i said theres plenty of pitches where lowering (or retreat for that matter) is simply not a good option ... you get to the top by any means needed and trying to get the "top rope send" is a very distant consideration

;)

Cody Allen 1 wrote:Would the belayer not just have to let go of the sling he used to lever the device? Why would the guide not stop the fall if you just let go of everything and it went back in to regular autoblock mode?

Em Cos wrote: Not necessarily - it is the weight of the climber that rotates the device into "locked" position. If the rope is running freely, the device is not necessarily "feeling" the weight of the falling climber, so to speak. It may lock up again, it may not.

I understood what you said the first time. I just didn't agree with it.

The device will naturally fall back to a vertical alignment, due to gravity. At this point the rope will create friction. What happens next is somewhat unclear but the system will try hard to brake.

If what you meant is that a device with its guide mode disengaged (sling holding it horizontal), prohibits the rope from creating any braking friction. Yes we are on the same page.

As soon as you let go of that sling it will go back to guide mode.