Layering help!

I'm trying to get my New England winter layering system dialed in and I can't decide wether to get a Synthetic inslulation layer or go with Down. So far, this is what my layering system looks like:

250 Merino wool baselayer> patagonia R1>????? >OR Iceline softshell>MHW Nilas Down belay jacket.

I just sold a MHW Ghost Whisperer because it was slightly too big to layer with, but I really enjoyed that jacket. I could size down and get a new one, or go the highly breathable synthetic route. I'm looking at the OR Cathode ( outdoorresearch.com/en/mens… ). The patagonia Nanos I've tried on in the past are way to short, so that options seems to be out.

Any help would be much appreciated!

For New England, I'd recommend synthetic. Humidity is high and moisture has always seemed to persist in the 3 or 4 winters I've spent up there, especially if it's your mid-layer puffy. For the belay parka, I'm not as concerned.

Can't speak to that OR jacket personally, but if the fit is good, it looks like a reasonable choice.

What Kyle said. Layering like this:

base layer
R1
mid-layer puffy (such as Cathode)
shell (hard or soft depending on conditions)
belay parka

Adding base layer bottoms (as thick as necessary) and then either hard shell covers or puffy pants can also increase warmth when stalled (easier when cragging, harder on multiptich). I personally also like mittens and a buff for frigid belays.

Shane N wrote:I'm trying to get my New England winter layering system

Layering system for what? Are you ice cragging? Bouldering? Alpine? Sport?

Thanks for the advice so far! Shoo, I plan on Ice cragging and doing some easy/basic mountaineering in the white mountains. This is my first season on ice.

Shane N wrote:250 Merino wool baselayer> patagonia R1>????? >OR Iceline softshell>MHW Nilas Down belay jacket.

This would be plenty for me most days without something to fill in the ??????

I would deff go synthetic for insulation here in New England. I often climb ice in VT/NH with a baselayer, r1, shell, and belay jacket. If it's close to or below zero I'll add an atom LT or such. I don't run super warm normally either.

I've had down midlayers before and they ALWAYS get wet...

Derek DeBruin wrote:What Kyle said. Layering like this: base layer R1 mid-layer puffy (such as Cathode) shell (hard or soft depending on conditions) belay parka Adding base layer bottoms (as thick as necessary) and then either hard shell covers or puffy pants can also increase warmth when stalled (easier when cragging, harder on multiptich). I personally also like mittens and a buff for frigid belays.

Out of curiosity, whats/is there a big advantage to a puffy mid layer vs a second/thicker fleece midlayer (like an R2 or R3) assuming you have a wind blocking layer (soft/hard shell) on top of it? Is is just that the puffy is lighter and more pack-able?

Shane N wrote:Thanks for the advice so far! Shoo, I plan on Ice cragging and doing some easy/basic mountaineering in the white mountains. This is my first season on ice.

Your list seems well reasoned, but maybe a bit on the unnecessarily expensive/extensive side for starting out. Totally up to your budget and preferences, obviously. I would wait until you've gotten your legs under you a bit more before you will know what you actually like and need, so you don't spend unnecessarily on things you won't want in the end.

It takes a while to figure out how hot you run and what you can tolerate, and it's pretty easy to screw up. You can stay surprisingly comfortable with very few layers and a good bit of sense. Also worth remembering that being a bit too warm and sweating is far more dangerous than being a bit too cold in the long run.

It's worth remembering that, as far as layers go, objectives in the northeast are really pretty forgiving (with notable exceptions, such as Mt. Washington). You're pretty much always within an hour or two walk back to the car, so choosing layers poorly probably won't kill you as long as you can stay moving.

Baselayer: Whatever you want here, really up to you, as long as it's either synthetic or wool.

Mid/warmth: Pretty much everyone around here in my circle has an R1, and uses it every day they're swinging tools. Hard to argue with it. It's just really good at what it does.

Insulating midlayer: I would put this as a "nice to have available" but not necessary unless you're out when it's really cold. You'll probably get one eventually, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Shell: Seems like a good shell to me. Pretty much any decent softshell that leans more towards the hardshell side of things will work.

Puffy: If you're cragging, giant, heavy, and warm. You won't regret it. The old version of the MH subzero was about the best cragging belay jacket there was. For alpine, the lightest you can tolerate. But you won't know what you can tolerate until you've tried it. Can't speak to the Nilas, but it seems to be in the world of very warm and relatively light (but expensive), so probably can't go wrong if you can afford it.

SpencerB wrote:Is is just that the puffy is lighter and more pack-able?

That's pretty much it, but what else would you need?

Kyle Tarry wrote:For low-altitude NE objectives, it may be overkill?

Overkill compared to what? Alaska? It's cold here dude :-)

featheredfriends.com/media/…

So after ice climbing a few years I am trying to get my layers dialed. I'm also in NE/ climbing in the Whites or Daks.

I use
Underamour Coldgear Compression- Next to skin
EMS Powerstretch - Hardfaced fleece very similar to R1, not gridded
Softshell, Rab Raptor or BD BDV
Patagonia Micro Puff - 100g Primaloft

I didn't pickup the softshells until the very end of last season so I didn't get to use them in the harshest NE conditions. I used to just be too cold in my hardfaced fleece on warm days, or too hot in my puffy the whole day on cold days. But I had two thoughts/ questions I wanted to throw into this forum.

First, on every product description you will ever read of a puffy, its spoken of as a mid-layer. Is this just non-applicable to ice cragging where we do the takeoff jacket and climb, put on jacket and sit still?

Second, I read recently (I think on Dane's blog) about layering where he explicitly mentions thinning the layering system so that his R1 is his first piece. I.e. his R1 is next to skin and nothing else. I had never thought to do this, I'm in my compression base layer always and then struggled with warmth when layering up. Do many of you guys do this?

And with that in mind does the basic system go:
Warm day ~30 - Compression Base, Softshell (add puffy or hardshell as necessary)
Cold day ~15 - 100g Fleece, Softshell (add puffy or hardshell as necessary)
Colder day ~0 - Compression Base, 100g Fleece, Softshell (add puffy or hardshell as necessary)

I had even thought, maybe I need a bigger badder belay jacket (BBJ) but after looking around I noticed that 100g Prima or 5g Down is a pretty standard size for non arctic conditions. So I'm thinking its the lower pieces I need to work on.

Anyway I've posted about this before, and ultimately time will tell, but I got the big homer simpson "DOH" when reading about putting the fleece next to skin. Looking forward to dialing it in better this year.

@SpencerB:
As shoo said, the puffy is just lighter and more packable. I also like how they layer better than fleece jackets. I haven't used a true fleece jacket in a few years, just micro-fleece like the R1.

As a side note, FWIW, Mountain Equipment makes a layer very similar to the R1 that is just as good but a bit cheaper if you can find it.

@Tom Sherman
For a puffy, they are mid- or over-layers as appropriate for conditions. In my puffy arsenal I have a Nanopuff (no hood), an old hooded MH compressor , and a Das Parka.

For chilly desert rock climbing, I bring the nanopuff. For cold rock climbing, the compressor. Both are used as the over-layer, belay jacket style.

On warm winter climbing or skiing days (typically early season or spring), I use a base layer, R1, soft shell, and the compressor on top. On cool winter climbing/skiing days, I use the same set up and bring the nanopuff as well. If I get chilly, the nanopuff goes on as a midlayer under the soft shell, compressor goes over everything. For truly cold days, the nanopuff is on as a midlayer under the shell and the DAS parka comes out for belays.

The definition of "warm, cool, and cold" varies by individual. I tend to run cold, but that system should work for your definitions; just the actual temperatures will change.

The only time I layer the R1 directly on the skin is potentially on those truly cold days. I'll go R1, nanopuff, softshell, compressor, DAS.

Ref. Tom Sheridan,
I tried Danes suggestion of an R1 weight fleece next to the skin but had more problems with "sweat management" than with a cap 1 or 2 base layer followed by an R1,all else being equal. Should note that my winter climbing is in the Rockies and is generally much drier than the NE.

Very good thread BTW.

Kyle Tarry wrote:And, I missed this the first time but the Nilas is a BEEFY belay jacket. 215g of 850 fill! For reference, Pata Fitz Roy has 180g, and I have MHW Phantom that also has 180g that I don't even take out of the closet if it's over 15-20 deg. Lots of common pieces are more in the 150g range. For low-altitude NE objectives, it may be overkill?

I don't know what the temps are like in NE, but at least for me personally I've learned I need more insulation than I think for belaying. I spend most of my time with my heart pumping, so I get by with few layers, but when I stop moving I get COLD, much colder than I had expected. I distinctly remember the day that made me get a Nilas, 5F degrees out and I was absolutely freezing my butt off belaying in a 250NTS/R1-type fleece/another fleece/Coreloft 60/down 800fp 85g/hardshell. I also remember loitering around in 45mph winds @ 20F degrees in the Nilas and being snug as a bug...

Anyway the point is, it's good to think about whether it could be overkill. But it's also good to err a little on the side of warmth.

Which is why my first question reading this thread was, what temps do you expect Shane, given what you want to do and where you want to go? :)

It's also key to put your belay layer on IMMEDIATELY when you stop moving and will stay stopped for a while to keep heat in, and don't forget to put your hood up.

Over dressing is pretty rough too. If you wear too many layers/too much insulation for the conditions while climbing, you'll sweat a lot. The second you stop all that sweat will do what nature intended it to do and cool you down, no matter how warm your belay jacket is.

Thanks for all the amazing input and information. Its great to see so many different opinions on layering systems. As most of you have said this could be slightly excessive, but i think I tend to run cold. As I haven't really been out in an ice cragging situation yet, i'll most likely err on the side of caution until i get it dialed for my personal comfort. I suppose we'll see pretty soon how it all works out.

Merino does feel warmer next to the skin while damp than synthetic fabrics, but it's still colder than any dry layer and takes longer to dry. 250 weight merino takes far too long to dry for me to want to use it any longer, regardless of temps.

The very thin 150 pure merino layers tend to degrade pretty fast though, I've worn holes in all I've tried within a season. The poly blends add durability and are more durable. I've become a big fan of the really light rab 120 layers.

For cragging in NH and VT I use:

Helly Hansen synthetic baselayer(similar to lightweight capilene)
R1 Hoody
Knifeblade pullover softshell
DAS or Micropuff as belay jacket depending on temps.

I would say even more important than layering is being smart on the approach. I will often approach in just a baselayer, even if that means having to do jumping jacks or running in place to stay warm, while waiting for my partner to be ready.

Then when I get to the base of the cliff if a sweat a lot, I will swap out my baselayer for a dry one and layer up for the day.

When you are done climbing a pitch, immediately put your belay jacket on, even if you feel warm after the climb. Regulating your core temperature is important. Keeping your core room will also keep your toes and hands warm.

Warm hands means no screaming barfies. Bring spare gloves to climb in, and a warm pair to belay with. I bring anywhere from 3-5 pairs of gloves.