What do you want to see in a multi-pitch climbing pack?

Access to the bottom of the main compartment from the outside, so you don't have to empty it to find one item that has buried itself.

rgold: " I don't expect the pack to be hauled, but at times it might be suspended from the harness for things like chimneying"

I'm with Richard. It could be called the "Goldstone 18"

just did a multipitch with a bunch of chimneys and my partners bag was completely shredded. so some kind of extra tear resistant material that can be dragged up and down thousands of feet of rock. good luck!

Actually, a pack that I already like very much is the Imlay Leprechaun:

Has a lot one would like in a multi-pitch pack.

Haul loop doesn't interfere with getting in the pack. No exterior pockets and such to snag when trailing in a chimney. Durable material. Inner zip pocket. Inner remove-able sit pad while remainder of pack can be a sit pad for a second. Side straps can secure a relatively skinny rope. Short enough to not interfere with gear loops on harness.

The mesh water vent in the bottom isn't necessary for my use.

Could be a little bigger for cold weather days or very long routes. And it's a little heavier than many packs so my partner and I usually choose between her pack and mine based on how much trailing we think we'll do on a climb.

In short, a little bigger and lighter but still durable would be nice. :-)

Your pack looks really nice! I wish I had a C note to blow on it.

Royal reminds me .... a little bigger, lighter, and less expensive. :-)

Really appreciate the thought that went into your post, rgold. I guess that's nothing new...

rgold wrote:Main innovation: A pair of gusseted vertical zippers to allow the pack to open nice and wide when hung from the anchor but still not dump contents. To make this work, you might need a roll-top closure like the old Arcteryx Miuras.

Kind of like one of the Fish Chum rope bags, right? Do you have a picture of the roll top on one of the old Arcteryx Miura packs?

rgold wrote:Exception to smoothness: Compression straps. I like the pack snug to the back regardless of load. Perhaps removable compression straps as on Cilogear and the old Arcteryx Miura packs would be ideal.

I find that the rope strap over the top doubles as a compression strap. Not perfect compression but good enough without the added weight/expense/complexity of regular compression straps.

rgold wrote:Pockets: it is nice to have a large pocket for guidebook, snacks, and headlamp. I think the way to do this is to have the pocket extend out on the inside of the pack and be accessible via a zipper on the outside; this way the smooth exterior is preserved. The zipper should be horizontal or diagonal, not vertical, which dumps stuff when the pack is hanging from an anchor.

I can get on board with this. This feature is done well on the Arcteryx Alpha packs.

rgold wrote:I'd like to have a running vest suspension (minus the water bottle and energy gel pockets of course) rather than the conventional shoulder straps and waist belt.

Heck yes. Only thing, it would be a bummer to have all that usable space on the shoulder pad and let it go to waste. I plan on trying this out but with slim shoulder pad pockets made of a durable, non-stretchy material (just enough room for a bar or point-and-shoot).

rgold wrote:Hydration pack pocket and ports and a really good way to keep the drinking tube out of the way when climbing. (The main use of the drinking tube will be for the belayer to have hands-free sips from the pack while it is hanging from the anchor.)

Interesting. I hadn't thought of trying to keep the hydration tube out of the way but it totally makes sense if you are taking the pack off and clipping it to the anchor at the top of every pitch. One or two external elastic loops in the seam between the back panel and front panel could probably do the job.

Nick Drake wrote:You current pack looks great for one day longer climb, I would add something to carry pointy bits. Before someone complains, yes some of us DO climb in the alpine and actually need to bring those things :)

If it needs to carry pointy bits, then we are talking a different model, I think. We just finished a run of a new pack (45L alpine pack) that should be online in the next week. We can dissect the hell out of it when the time comes.

I definitely can't argue with you on the cost of the flash 18. That's one feature that you're not going to beat.

@Bill Lawry: Thanks for the heads up on Imlay Canyon Gear. I hadn't heard of them yet. Looks like some good stuff!

Tosch Roy wrote: Kind of like one of the Fish Chum rope bags, right? Do you have a picture of the roll top on one of the old Arcteryx Miura packs?

Yes, like the Chums. I'll post some pics of the Arcteryx roll top...

Tosch Roy wrote:If it needs to carry pointy bits, then we are talking a different model, I think. We just finished a run of a new pack (45L alpine pack) that should be online in the next week. We can dissect the hell out of it when the time comes. I definitely can't argue with you on the cost of the flash 18. That's one feature that you're not going to beat.

It's nice to have the ability to carry an axe for a lot of alpine rock routes in WA, where you are not bringing any type of bivy gear. Strap them down all you want, but a larger pack still doesn't climb as nicely as a compact one.
Being able to carry an axe on route is really nice early season at WA pass or in the enchantments. It would really be nice to have an axe on hand when keeping it real goes wrong and you find yourself on 45 degree snow in TC pros.......I mean sure you could be intelligent and take your rock shoes off before you go off rappel, but where is the fun in that!?

A small pack with pointy bits carrying would be great in the bugs also, I saw a few people rocking that flash. All were worried that they might loose their axe (although with the new rappel stations you can make it off safely without one anyway).

I agree about the ax attachment points---there are plenty of "pure rock" routes that have snow approaches, especially early in the season, and other places, like Chamonix, where a glacier approach is required for pure rock climbs in all seasons.

But if ya wanna carry some kinda crampons, they go inside the bag!

rgold wrote:But if ya wanna carry some kinda crampons, they go inside the bag!

While on the actual rock for sure. Hell I'd be happy if they still made 3rd tools to get it all in the pack! Yes I know about the 43 sum'tec, but I like an adze if needed to chop steps with approach shoes, I refuse to wear boots.
I like the option of strapping them to the outside on glacier slog routes that require the pons come on and off frequently, it saves time over banging off all the gloppy wet PNW snow.

Nick Drake wrote:It's nice to have the ability to carry an axe for a lot of alpine rock routes in WA, where you are not bringing any type of bivy gear

rgold wrote:I agree about the ax attachment points---there are plenty of "pure rock" routes that have snow approaches, especially early in the season, and other places, like Chamonix, where a glacier approach is required for pure rock climbs in all seasons.

Ok, those are good calls. Case and point for starting this post, so thanks for your input. I'm digging the community design this has created.

AlexandreK wrote:For multi-day fast and light alpine, I've always hoped some company would come up with a pack that has an actual, usable bivy pad as part of the frame system. Like the equivalent of a 3/4 ridgerest built into the pad (but removable)

I've considered this before to possibly sleep on... They're being made by Organic now. But have no experience on how burly or safe the clasp burrito closures are.
Pusher the Sack? Backpack doubles as thin launch pad.

For those of you who contributed, thought you might be interested in this. This is a quick write-up on our blog about the design process I've used. For those of you with a design background, I'm wondering if you have any ideas to speed up the cycle because I'm sloooow.

Pack Design: The Blood, Sweat, and Tears

A fold out pocket deal of thin nylon off the bottom of the pack you can clip between your legs to make a hammock seat, at hanging belays.

Firm back.
Narrow profile.
Inner pocket that can be accessed from without.
Food and drink go into pocket (long enough, deep enough).
Light weight but not super light.
Shoulder straps that adjust and allow easy removal.
Loop to hang on biner.
Smooth exterior.

let me list
1. Around 20 liters
2. orange, yellow or white the light color lets me see the inside of my pack.
2. 2 big burly grab handles/haul loops (Yellow is the best color)
3. urethane and wielded seams would be awesome, if this cant be done taped seams would be all most as good.
4. Arc'teryx have nailed the closure system on the alpha fl just copy it , it's so damn good.
5. Some kind of ice axe attachment, i was thinking something like this,

B= two fabric tunnels H= a big ass centralized haul loop
The idea is you put a little elastic cinch on the haul loop and use that to hold the spike end the more radically curved the tool is the more it should be forced into the tunnel (that's the theory) if using a basic straight shafted axe then you can put the adze in the other tunnel allowing a very secure carry. Nothing to catch providing the tunnel lies flush with the pack, the elastic cinch can be removed when not in use.
6. Rope strap is a no brainer
7. No gear loops on the pack body or hip belt, put them on the front shoulder strap instead.
8. Removable foam frame sheet (will be replaced with cut up thermarest)
9. I would like a vest like system similar to that on ultra marathon packs, super stable design and allows for things like food to be kept up front.
10. Have a internal pocket built into the skirt of the cinch, it should just be a rectangular pouch that could flip in and out of the pack allowing the pack to have a brain that's perfectly designed for inside the pack.
This is all i could think of right now though i'm sure i could think of more ways given enough time.

Right on, thanks seb^^. Sorry for the wait on this.

Lot of good points there. I still haven't gotten my hands on an arcteryx alpha fl pack. From what I've seen though, I think arcteryx did a really good with that pack.

Why would you replace the backpad with a cut up thermarest? Would you just be looking for something thicker than a standard backpad. For this size pack, I'm using 1/4" 2lb density closed cell polyethylene. Is that enough for you?

Also, I gotta Love the napkin drawing.

I love my Outdoor Research Dry Peak Bagger for ice climbing. Very light (9oz), big enough for a belay parka + food + water + bail kit. Gives my head completely full range of motion and I don't even notice that it is there while I'm climbing.

I wish I could get a tougher version for rock climbing... your "The Stud" pack seems like a solid choice.

Tosch Roy wrote:Right on, thanks seb^^. Sorry for the wait on this. Lot of good points there. I still haven't gotten my hands on an arcteryx alpha fl pack. From what I've seen though, I think arcteryx did a really good with that pack. Why would you replace the backpad with a cut up thermarest? Would you just be looking for something thicker than a standard backpad. For this size pack, I'm using 1/4" 2lb density closed cell polyethylene. Is that enough for you? Also, I gotta Love the napkin drawing.

I was inspired by the design video on your sight :P thermarest simply because its fairly stiff and provides great insulation, i also never bring a full length mat so the thermarest is either for my feet, or as a stand alone (very cold) sleep system. Arc'teryx really have worked wonders with their pack the white PU liner on the inside and urethane coated outer it's amazing. Also been looking at wielding for PVC coated nylon and it looks pretty basic, the hand held tool can cost as little as £80/$116 for something that cheap it totally looks worth playing around with especially considering that you can get up to 80% seam strength, would be waterproof and way more abrasion resistant. If you haven't all ready looked into it you must it looks like it could be the future.