How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

BigFeet wrote:I'm just going to lay myself down on the coals and ask a question. For all those that feel a good belayer are hard to come by, have the wisdom of proper climbing system and use, are as good as they say they are, and complain about it on a worldwide forum... why are you not teaching them? Someone excited by our sport/recreation will be put off by an attitude of sorry, but not with you. Teach them. So, you put off climbing that project, or whatever, for a couple of days or months because you are mentoring. At the end, you are assured your belayer is competent. I don't believe you can completely judge how someone will conduct themselves with someone else's life in their hands when all you have seen is how he treats himself. Parents' and their children's interaction is but just one example of this judgement being incorrect.

People who are new to climbing/belaying and willing to learn are one thing. But there's a population of climbers who think they know it all and think they are doing just fine, and are not receptive to being asked to alter their belay habits.

Leave those alone after you understand them... you can't fix stupid, as they say. Unfortunately, they may cull themselves, and hence the uptick in accidents. We only perpetuate the problems if we don't try to correct them.

For all the others, the question still stands for the community, though.

This is not to sound like a jerk. Serious question.

Mark E Dixon wrote: It's not easy being the resident MP epigramist. Buff, I for one, salute you!

All fun and games in the asylum until a chest gets cracked open, then it's a party..... ;)

Just dont let go of the brake hand ...

How hard is that really ....

Its that simple

;)

Buff Johnson wrote: All fun and games in the asylum until a chest gets cracked open, then it's a party..... ;)

Usually a wake once the rib speaders come out

Back In the Day they were still Beating It To Death.

Michelle Angelfish wrote:I don't have much exposure to grigris- but this is a fun strategy with atcs. I was taught to go through the preliminary checks and then when told by the belayer, on belay, stick out your right hand for a handshake. If they know the drill they'll make an awkward move to shake with their left- but most people will let go of the rope to shake your hand. It's a light hearted moment to emphasize wanting an attentive belay. I've noticed that with climbers stuck in ego, they get a little miffed from being "tricked", and it's those people I worry about more- vs someone who 'gets' why you would do this in the first place.

WARNING: Serious thread drift back to the original topic!

So far I think we have approximately one suggestion for the OP as we have passed through the gri-gri failure modes, advanced clothing concepts, and the intricate meaning of rope diameters.

As noted by "aikibujin", the "hand shake method" doesn't really work as no one takes belaying seriously when both are standing on the ground.

I've found a few other tricks.
1) I make a lot of intentional mistakes (leaving a leg loop open, tying in to the belay loop with an overhand, etc ...) and then give the wrong end of the rope to the belayer and ask to be put on belay. Let's see how many of my mistakes the poor fellow can find during the "double check procedure".
2) I show a bunch of "unacceptable" (for me) belay methods to my new partner and ask if any are acceptable to him.
3) I build a really shitty "anchor" (for trad partners) at ground level and ask the new partner to find all 8 problems.

These three methods work a lot better than saying "Show me how you ...". Most people are eager to find errors and mistakes in my "fake" setups, but when being asked how to do something, they immediately become very defensive and take it as criticism.

These methods give some indication about the competence of the new partner, but more importantly, it gives a fairly good picture of the attitude and care of the person.

I've teamed up with a whole bunch of MP users (several dozen). As I don't climb indoors, I haven't figured out any other way of finding partners when I wear out the old ones. It seems about 1 in 5 has "good enough" safety for my liking. My worst case was a new partner building a belay "anchor" from a #4 nut and a manky pin and then hanging the ATC device (NOT an ATC Guide) into the "anchor" and setting up a "pulley" when "belaying" me up. It is not fun to unknowingly solo 5.8!

Quite a poor record, so keep your eyes open when heading out there.

Patrik wrote: ...1) I make a lot of intentional mistakes ...

I'd never climb with you again

I don't trust an auto lock over the skills of the my belayer but I do prefer to use and be belayed with a gri gri over an atc. There are too many distractions like my a long time climbing partner deciding to read the New York Times while belaying me, or me fumbling with those shity old ropes at movement.

Anyway, one thing I like to do is to communicate to my belayer and making sure I she is aware that I might fall. The first thing we learn about belaying is to ask "on belay?" pretty basic

Patrik wrote: My worst case was a new partner building a belay "anchor" from a #4 nut and a manky pin and then hanging the ATC device (NOT an ATC Guide) into the "anchor" and setting up a "pulley" when "belaying" me up. It is not fun to unknowingly solo 5.8!

I did pitch 8 of Yankee Clipper (5.9) in El Potrero Chico "belayed" that way, on a 60m rope (or was it 70?), so I'd have taken (at least) a 30m fall (at the start of the pitch) to as much as a 60m fall at the end. I was not best pleased. When I pointed out this was wrong, belayer claimed he would have been able to catch a fall. I just said, "no, you wouldn't have" and left it at that. He didn't lead any of the other pitches (nor belay any -- we were climbing as a triple, so he didn't need to).

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't this be fine if the brake strand is redirected through a higher anchor point? If I'm understanding the set-up correctly, I do this occasionally to lower from the top.

JulianG wrote:The first thing we learn about belaying is to ask "on belay?" pretty basic

Essentially a rhetorical question waxing on the metaphysical of late. Maybe "got belay?" or "can you hold me now?" would better capture the moment.

A large group was gathered at Military Wall on September 12 playing music, possibly loud enough to make communication between climber and belayer difficult. Climber was getting into the upper knee bar on Reliquary (5.12b) when he fell near the last bolt. The climber landed on the belayer’s dog, killing it instantly. The belayer was holding the GriGri in her right hand with fingers over the cam, preventing it from locking, and said she didn’t know how it could have happened. Worse yet, she said this was the third time it has happened to her.

----

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

– Auric Goldfinger

Patrik wrote: I haven't figured out any other way of finding partners when I wear out the old ones.

Hmm… I think this explains it all.

David Gibbs wrote: I did pitch 8 of Yankee Clipper (5.9) in El Potrero Chico "belayed" that way, on a 60m rope (or was it 70?), so I'd have taken (at least) a 30m fall (at the start of the pitch) to as much as a 60m fall at the end. I was not best pleased. When I pointed out this was wrong, belayer claimed he would have been able to catch a fall. I just said, "no, you wouldn't have" and left it at that. He didn't lead any of the other pitches (nor belay any -- we were climbing as a triple, so he didn't need to).

This "bullsh belay" have happened to me no less than three times and I have seen it happen to someone else once. I wonder where this method got started and why it spreads?

Competent belayer saves the day, finds the missing sock While climber loses hipster truckers hat. Warning the video contains scary belaying

rockandice.com/weekend-whip…

That is scary.

David Gibbs wrote: I did pitch 8 of Yankee Clipper (5.9) in El Potrero Chico "belayed" that way, on a 60m rope (or was it 70?), so I'd have taken (at least) a 30m fall (at the start of the pitch) to as much as a 60m fall at the end. I was not best pleased. When I pointed out this was wrong, belayer claimed he would have been able to catch a fall. I just said, "no, you wouldn't have" and left it at that. He didn't lead any of the other pitches (nor belay any -- we were climbing as a triple, so he didn't need to).

Maybe it is english issue here but did you just say you took a 60m fall on a 60-70m rope?

The route I assume you are talking about has bolts so the only way I can see to take a 60m fall on a 70m rope is if you climb to the next anchor and did not clip a single bolt OR you had the entire rope out before even starting to climb, or your belayer didn't even put you on belay (which if this happened I have to say was your own fault for starting to climb when you ere staring at your partner not having you on belay), or he took you off belay while climb (was he trying to kill you on purpose?), or the english translation isn't working right.

ViperScale wrote: Maybe it is english issue here but did you just say you took a 60m fall on a 60-70m rope?

It was in reference to belaying directly off an anchor with the rope effectively running over a biner. Even though a regular ATC was involved, it would add no friction (i.e., not a brake assisting device and braking in direction of fall force). And so a fall after following most of the way up would likely have been back down to the end of the rope.

A frequent source of contestation in this and other similar threads on MP is whether or not the accidental dropping of a climber by the belayer is a new phenomenon or something that has long been a part of climbing. I started climbing in 1971. Based on my personal experience, I would suggest this is a new phenomenon that first appeared in the early 1990s. The date at which I became aware of it was March 1993. At that time, I read an article in Climbing that the author said described a new type of accident. Two climbers were toproping in Boulder Canyon. When the leader got to the anchor, he threaded the rope properly, and asked to be lowered. When he was about 15 feet from the deck, the belayer’s end of the rope went through the belay device dropping the climber who suffered grievous injuries. I was startled at this aberrant behavior as I never imagined a belayer not being tied into the rope. The two climbers involved in this accident were well-known locally with many first ascents to their credit.

Shortly after that, I was Faculty Advisor for a college student group going to Joshua Tree for spring break. There were 10 students evenly split between new climbers and experienced climbers. This was before climbing gyms in our area. We taught the beginners in the school gymnasium—knots, tying in, signals, rappelling, belaying, etc. For rappelling, we had them go down a flight of stairs. Not the real thing, but it did teach them the motions. Likewise with belaying. We taught them how to let out rope as we walked away, how to catch a fall as we suddenly started running and safety issues. I mentioned to the students the article I had read in Climbing and warned them never to do anything as stupid as not tying in.

At Joshua Tree, we spent a couple of days with the beginners at Trash Can Rock and The Short Wall. They did quite well. So the next day I hiked out with a couple of them to Mental Physics, a climb with an easy crack pitch followed by a 5.7-8 slab pitch. Mental Physics

When we arrived at the route, a couple was getting ready to climb it. The guy appeared to be an experienced climber and was explaining to the woman belaying him what to do, and he had anchored her into the rock. I thought if she knew so little, they would have been better off on a one-pitch climb. He easily climbed up the crack to the ledge and continued up the next pitch not belaying at the ledge. Suddenly, one of the students shouted to me that the belayer was not tied into the rope and that there were only a few feet of tail left. We all shouted at the leader, but because of the wind he couldn’t hear us and continued climbing.

I told a student to put a knot in the end of the rope so it wouldn’t go through the belay device, while I unclipped the belayer from her stance. I gave her a 30-second lesson in crack climbing and told her that when the rope came taut to start climbing but to stop climbing when there was slack. She did remarkably well. At the top, the leader set up a belay and then looked down and, I’m sure, was surprised to see his partner well off the deck. She did remarkably well--not only being new to the sport but also proceeding calmly under trying circumstances. My partners and I climbed the route without mishap, and by the time we returned to the base, the pair had departed.

I’m glad the leader didn’t fall on the slab exit, but it would have made for a much better story if he had, viz., how an alert beginning climber had noticed his mistake (due to a good teacher) and saved the climber from certain death. After we returned, I wrote to Climbing about this experience and thanking them for describing a new type of mistake and received a nice personal reply saying it made them feel good to be of help. This was the kind of incident that John Long could have turned into an enjoyable 5 page story.

In June of the following year, I was waiting at the start of the Durrance Route at Devils Tower as another party was climbing. The leader took a long fall while extending the first two pitches into one pitch. His belayer held him, and as I looked at the belayer, I saw that he had only about six feet of rope left before it would go through his belay device and that he was contemplating lowering the fallen leader!! I won’t go into the whole, long story about this event, which probably belongs on a thread entitled “Strange Days in Climbing.” It was at this point that I thought of the desirability of checking out the belay skills of a new climbing partner. I had climbed with many partners for over 20 years and belay skills were just a given. That time had passed.

These occurrences started me thinking then about what changes in climbing habits brought about the new style belaying accidents. My guess is that the main contributing factors were the introduction of climbing harnesses and Sticht Plates, which led to toproping. When I started climbing, leader and belayer tied into the rope before the climb started. When the leader got to the belay stance, he brought up the follower. Descent was by rappelling or down climbing. The unpleasantness of hanging or being lowered while tied into the rope precluded hangdogging and toproping a route. And belaying around the waist added a lot discomfort for the belayer in these situations. After a few years, my partners and I started using swamis but that didn’t change things. Somehow, having the rope around your body to belay creates a more intense sense of awareness than having it go through a device. Slowly, after harnesses and Sticht Plates were introduced, the idea that it was OK to hang became common. The next change occurred with introduction of the power drill that made it easier, inter alia, to place bolted anchors at the top of climbs. And so the progression to toproping and sport climbing contributed to a laxity in belaying standards that slowly permeated into the climbing community, and this was before the introduction of the Grigri in 1991. However, the device accelerated the trend by many climbers thinking it’s a good device for a novice belayer obviating the need to thoroughly train the beginner in belaying. But no need to go into that as it’s a theme that’s been recited many times on MP.

Rob.calm