new

why 

Wait just a minute...
Gear left on a trad line...
(All together now)
BOOOOOTAY!!!

Did you politely ask them to more their shit?

Also, this is not a generational thing i see a lot of old farts doing this same stuff.

Finally, no need to judge other for style when they are getting in your way. Top roping is entirely ok to do anywhere and time. If you think you are better than them for leading it... good for you. No one else cares. Personally, when I am a beginner crag i love seeing people take on bolts, pink pointing, and top roping. Its a good way from carrying them out.

I think you should walk a little further in the woods next time. All these issues will disappear.

Just lead the route and as you come to the fixed gear, look surprised and comment how lucky they were not to fall on it. Take it out and place another piece, even if their piece was bomber but always have an awestruck look when coming across their gear. Once you come down hand the gear back to the former leader and be in awe that they would lead on such mank with such bravado.

20' away?
So..i don't know what the 'rule' at any given crag is, but the 'rule' we practice, on both side of the issue, leader and TRer, is if there is a toprope set up, and someone else comes along and wants to lead it, they can:
a) kindly ask to have the toprope set to the side so they can lead.
b) offer to pull the rope and replace it when they are done leading it.
c) school the nubes about a) and b) above.
I have never, and i am oooolllld, seen someone leave gear on a line and walk away and do another line. Booty! (Not really, but really really clueless).
I like the idea of pulling the gear and congratulating the guy on the mank, brilliant!

Midwest Will ...... I could not have said it any better.

But you do have the right to ask if you can pull the unused TR. Then when the answer is NO... you can pull it down. Then stuff gets real interesting.

"Also, this is not a generational thing i see a lot of old farts doing this same stuff.

and matt c ..... only old farts who are noobs do that.

Midwest Will wrote:taking it would have caused a fight ..

and........?

Guy Keesee wrote: "Also, this is not a generational thing i see a lot of old farts doing this same stuff. and matt c ..... only old farts who are noobs do that.

If only this were true... sigh. I guess some people just stay noobs even after proclaiming they have been climbing for 20+ years. I think its an entitlement thing or just plain ignorance. If its just plain ignorance, its super important to address this in person with noobs not just spray about in on the interweeb. That way it can be a learning experience.

And if its entitlement Guys move is kinda gratifying:
But you do have the right to ask if you can pull the unused TR. Then when the answer is NO... you can pull it down. Then stuff gets real interesting.

Although not that much fun when your being whined at while leading.

Dude you are STILL complaining about this? Didnt you already create a post on redriverclimbing.com and people told ya to basically suck it up and stop being a cry ass baby?

Climb and take your gear down. Be considerate.

And I thought new school people were annoying sometimes. If that is what old school people act like I am glad they will all have died off soon.

Really? You are pissed someone left a route up when they were climbing on the route next to it. You make it sound like they left the gear up for multi days.

Do like most people at crags I have been out do. Ask if you can pull the rope and put it back up when you are done. Ask if you can top rope on their rope. I don't know how many times I have been at a crag and there was a wall of us all swapping climbs on different routes that others setup.

I wasn't there but could it be that person A was working on leaning a 5.8 route because they are still new to climbing and want to get it down before trying to lead it. You can't climb non-stop so person B he was climbing on decided to lead the route next to them (assuming he set the first route up) while person A was resting.

I was at a crag onetime that is mostly all multipitch only has 1 set of anchors to rap off of and someone was there trying to set up a top rope on it (easy 5.5 route). I am sure he got his kids up the climb at some point but he was probably having second thoughts on his route choice since there was like 4 groups of people lined up to rap (he did let us all rap off his top rope setup).

"I guess some people just stay noobs even after proclaiming they have been climbing for 20+ years."

Yup. Gotta love the perma gumby

Some one is having a bad day. Like it or not the young generation of climbers is here to stay and its your job to teach them right from wrong. Your attitude is poor and doesn't reflect well for anyone. I think of my favorite Isaac Newton quote, "If I have been able to see further than others, its because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

If you think you're so tough then come get in my face at the crag next time and lets see how well your old decrepit body holds up to a good ole fist-a-cuff.

Midwest Will wrote: Please stop treating outdoor climbing like a gym .. pull your ropes .. pick up your gear.. be humble and most of all STFU with your trophy words.

Well buddy, I'm not trying to sound like a prick....as I'm usually the happiest and stoked dude at the crag doing what I love. But, take a little peice of your own advice and teach them, while being humble, proper climbing etiquette rather than ranting and raving on here? .....Could work right?

A military chaplain where I work has been a climber for, according to him "over 20 years", and when I ran into him at one of the local grags, he was top roping with several rookies and his anchor was the fuckin' rings on the bolts!! I'm no stonemaster, but when the hell do you just run a rope through the rings and have newbies climb, slip and fall on the rings repeatedly? To my knowledge, its rap down and pull the rope. So, I walk over, say hello and say "Hey chaps, glad to see ya! I noticed your anchor was just the rings and having new climbers on it can wear down the rings on the bolts much quicker. It'd be best to set up an anchor with a cordelette & 'biners then run the rope through. That's the proper way and wont wear the rings down faster"

Problem solved. Climb on!

Midwest Will wrote:why are you leaving ropes up?!??? spent 7 days in the red .. i've never saw a bigger group of sissys. Are you leaving it up to announce you lead a route ? no one cares that you lead 5.6 sport.. are you leaving it up to top rope it later ? how much later? why would you top rope it after a lead ? why would you be so bold to tie up a route so others wont get on it ? why do you think anyone would want to climb on your draws? seriously WTF are you thinking ? And trad gear placed? I get to the base of popular 5.8 and some ahole has trad gear plugged.. why would you leave your gear? it's the best 5.8 in the area .. do you think no one will want to get on it on a saturday ? OH you left your gear in so your buddy could lead it .. do you really want your buddy leading on your poorly placed gear ? what if he/she falls and your gear blows .. do you want he/her injury/death on your shoulders ? and again .. no one gives a crap about your 5.8 lead .. if you are climbing where other people are in view and your climb has a star .. chances are someone wants to LEAD it .. lead .. the goal of climbing. you can do your top roping in the gym... people climb outside to lead. it seems like the new generation needs trophies.. trophy words .. trophy phases .. ya all need a little pat on the back. " i onsighted that !" you cant onsight on top rope .. you cant onsight on top rope especially after sitting on the rope to take off your miguels hoodie at the crux. ONSIGHT IS A CLEAN LEAD WITH NO PRE PLACED GEAR. no draws .. no trad gear and sure as hell no toprope. You dont deserve "onsight" you have to earn that. Please stop treating outdoor climbing like a gym .. pull your ropes .. pick up your gear.. be humble and most of all STFU with your trophy words.

There are some points I agree with, and there are some points that I do not. First, and I know you shouldn't HAVE to, and it sucks that you know acceptable outdoor behavior and others do not (we have all been there, except if you are the n00b dipshits in question, then you have no idea wtf I'm saying), but try being DIPLOMATIC first.

The sad fact is, that in Porter Jarrard's words, climbing has become a "yuppie fitness craze". It's something we all have to deal with, especially at popular single pitch sport climbing destinations. You may have missed the memo, but it's not going away, and will likely only get worse. Like it or not, it is now the job of experienced veterans to educated these snotnosed fuck trophies clad in their shiny neon nylon gear. So there's that.

Most of the time in this situation, I have asked if I can pull the rope and re-hang it when I'm done. Often times, a rope is hanging there because whoever led it, or whomever is capable of cleaning it just didn't feel like climbing it (again) at that particular time. Sometimes people are grateful to have someone go up and clean their rope. If this isn't the case, people are generally ok with having their rope pulled if it's put back up.

In the case of a guy that leaves gear in and just walks away with no one ready to climb, clean, or lead it, fuck that guy. I would say something first, then lead it, cleaning his gear. Actually I would probably just skip it altogether, but if it's a classic that I came there to get on, and no one was interested in climbing it or cleaning it and just somehow claiming it by leaving gear in it, that's fucking retarded. Just lead it and clean their shit, or leave it in if you can as you pass it. What are they gonna do, tackle your belayer, and pull you off the route? If they just need a few minutes, have some patience and give them that. If not, then get your passive aggro on and fire that rig!

As far as being annoyed by misuse of terms, I get that too. But that's easy to shrug off. Not as easy when there's pretty much an overall annoying shitshow going on. If someone gives you serious lip, then sometimes you just have to stand up for yourself. 99% of the people gang toproping easy bolted routes are white suburbanites that enjoy Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, Little Wayne and Panic at the Disco as their music of choice. Odds are you'll win. But don't go Roadhouse until there's no other option. Be nice, until it's time to not be nice.

matt c. wrote:If you think you are better than them for leading it... good for you. No one else cares. Personally, when I am at a beginner crag i love seeing people take on bolts, pink pointing, and top roping. Its a good way from carrying them out. I think you should walk a little further in the woods next time. All these issues will disappear.

The #1 reason I love climbing in the Northeast. In 4 years I have literally never waited for a single climb in Vermont or the Adirondacks.

If you want to avoid your annoyances go find a more obscure crag. You can't really complain when you're climbing at Military Wall, PMRP, or Muir Valley and people are toproping. Just strike up a conversation about etiquette or go somewhere else. There are dozens of crags in the Red without crowds.

Arn't there like 1,000,000,000 other climbs at the red?

KrisFiore wrote: The #1 reason I love climbing in the Northeast. In 4 years I have literally never waited for a single climb in Vermont or the Adirondacks. If you want to avoid your annoyances go find a more obscure crag. You can't really complain when you're climbing at Military Wall, PMRP, or Muir Valley and people are toproping. Just strike up a conversation about etiquette or go somewhere else. There are dozens of crags in the Red without crowds.

are you F'N kidding!! i dont climb at any of the mentioned areas .. my f'n head would explode.

THE ISSUES ISN'T TOPROPING THE ISSUE IS LEAVING ROPES UP UNATTENDED BECAUSE SOMEONE IN THE GROUP MIGHT WANT TO MUSTER UP THE BALLS TO TOPROPE A 5.8 SOMETIME BEFORE SUNSET.

Midwest Will wrote: TOPROPE A 5.8 SOMETIME BEFORE SUNSET.

Why are you all worked up if it's only a 5.8 then? There are plenty of world class 5.13s & 5.14s at the Red. Fishing for more keyboard warriors to support your view over all the climbing websites ain't gonna change a thing.

If I leave a TR on a climb, I think it's my job to offer to pull it to everybody who walks by, and not put the burden on them to ask to pull it.

Midwest Will wrote: are you F'N kidding!! i dont climb at any of the mentioned areas .. my f'n head would explode. THE ISSUES ISN'T TOPROPING THE ISSUE IS LEAVING ROPES UP UNATTENDED BECAUSE SOMEONE IN THE GROUP MIGHT WANT TO MUSTER UP THE BALLS TO TOPROPE A 5.8 SOMETIME BEFORE SUNSET.

Really I think the issue is that you need to be able to learn to ignorant novices politely. In doing this, you will: 1. Likely get your needs met. 2. Help make the climbing community as a hole more informed 3. Lose your passive attitude