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How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Healyje wrote: Given the amount of droppage, it's probably best to not further compound the problem and muddy the water for beginning and intermediate climbers by even mentioning the phrase 'soft catch' - they have enough on their plate already just being able to lock that puppy up reliably.
I dont agree with that all, especially with respect to intermediate climbers. A soft catch is not an advanced feature reserved for the best belayers--it's a simple part of basic belaying just like locking the biner, watching the climber, keeping the hand on the rope, ect. If a climber cannot effectively perform a soft catch, that climber does not know how to belay adequately. Hard catches can break legs and feet--they are not a joke. I have sustained injuries on multiple occasions from a lack of a soft catch. I have seen a woman break her ankle after getting slammed into the rock from a hard catch.

Soft catches are not hard to perform. Simply time a jump with the fall to ensure you get pulled up and that's it! It's totally possible a new belayer could get it right on their very first attempt. At worst, they have to practice it a bit.

Climbing is a sport in which you need to make decisions with potentially extreme consequences on the fly and with no errors. One of the expected abilities of a person competent enough to belay is the ability to learn new, complex and important skills in an efficient and error-free manner, and if a person cannot do that then they cannot be entrusted with the heavy responsibility of belaying.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
20 kN wrote: Soft catches are not hard to perform.
No, they're not, but the technique adds yet another dimension of complexity for beginning and intermediate climbers to deal with.

20 kN wrote:Climbing is a sport in which you need to make decisions with potentially extreme consequences on the fly and with no errors.
Well, that used to be the operative concept. Not really being executed well en masse these days.

20 kN wrote: One of the expected abilities of a person competent enough to belay is the ability to learn new, complex and important skills in an efficient and error-free manner, and if a person cannot do that then they cannot be entrusted with the heavy responsibility of belaying.
I agree, hence all the dropping. Why add another dimension to the dynamic when so many folks aren't managing to master the basics.
S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

I have a hypothesis for the reason how the misconception of more slack = soft catch came into being. Some in the old school promote/promoted "sitting into a catch" to reduce the amount of slack in the system, esp to lighter belayers. Generally speaking this is not something one should do with a notable exception of preventing the falling climber from hitting ledge/ground. So somehow, to counter that advice, the incorrect corollary of "more slack = softer catch" was coined to counter "less slack = hard catch".
Jumping up while catching is not for every belayer, diligent or not. Sometimes this will cause the lighter belayer to get yanked up or slammed into the fist piece. I think it is most useful when the climber weighs significantly less than the belayer, ie, when belaying a U-12 kid for example.
Of course there is the sliding belay with gloves technique but that honestly is for those really bent on giving soft catch when there is no danger of ledge or ground.

Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Jake Jones wrote: Yeah, you're right. For some reason my dipshit brain was equating an extra foot paid out as being the same as climbing a foot higher- which it is not. Regardless, it still increases fall factor.
Sorry, I know this isn't particularly relevant, but as rgold says, if the fall factor is greater than 1, increased slack actually decreases the fall factor. In Jeremy's example a 40 ft fall with 33 feet of rope out becomes a 41 foot fall with 31 feet of rope out. 41/31 = 1.323, which is less than the original 1.333.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

How do you get from 33 feet of rope in the system to 31 feet of rope in the system by adding *more* slack?

Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Em Cos wrote:How do you get from 33 feet of rope in the system to 31 feet of rope in the system by adding *more* slack?
oops - by typing 33 when you should have typed 30. 40/30 = 1.333. Adding a foot of slack and a foot of fall distance gives 41/31 = 1.323.
GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
Toad wrote:So how do YOU assess/ensure the competency of your belayer when climbing with them the first time? You cannot always watch them belay someone else first, nor can you watch their brake hand when you're on the wall. ...Yet it can be a somewhat sensitive issue, as people are naturally expected to be defensive of their egos ("Yeah, man, of course I can belay. I'm not a noob. I got you."). Nobody wants to be offended, and nobody wants to hit the deck.
Honestly, you either act like a little child, expecting that the world (mommy and daddy?) will keep you safe - knowing implicitly that you are surrounded only by good, caring people... or you act like an adolescent, and assume that everything will work out fine, because it always has... or you behave like an adult, and look after yourself.

It's clear in this thread who falls into which camp.

Once you have decided which one to be, the "how" is really not hard at all.

GO
johnva · · ALEXANDRIA · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 5

soft catch question, which seems to be the locus of this thread. When I jump from an active belay position, I only get 6 or so inches higher, now if I squat and jump, then maybe 18 inches. If I was really trying to time my jump for the moment of maximum force on the rope, that would be tough. Just thinking that if there is a decent amount of rope out, the amount of slack that the fall sucks up from different points where slack may have accumulated, and then rope stretch, etc. And my jump up and then return to earth is also pretty quick. Seems that a soft catch is more about going with the flow, and not dropping to your knees or bracing against a rock, etc. But even to that point, and this is a physics question. If I weigh two hundred pounds, once the rope exerts more than 200 pounds of force on me, aren't I being lifted up. I can't really make myself lighter or heavier at that point, can I.
On rope stretch, where is the maximum force being applied, since the rope stretching is also dissipating the force along its stretch. So if a 200 pound person falls, his speed accelerates meaning he is exerting more force than 200 pounds. As the rope begins to catch, that force begins to dissipate, and at the stop, the force is again 200 pounds.
If I jump when I start to feel the force, is that really the maximum, or will that happen a milisecond later where I am now also returning to earth.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95

What is the point of all this nonsense? Aside from the mathematical masturbation, is this stuff in play in the real world? Rarely if ever. Find yourself someone who's not going to drop you and I think you're doing just fine.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
aikibujin wrote: How does that work exactly? Please explain the math. Does every foot of extra slack somehow raise the climber one foot as well?
no it adds two feet of "slack" thus if you fall you fall the distance of rope paid out x2. Draw a picture or use a string or something. It's common sense. 1' of rope = 2 feet of fall not counting stretch. If you have extra rope in the system youhave to add that to the fall as well as the rope length. More rope plus further fall always means higher fall factor. Slacking any beley means a higher FF. That said I'd rather have a factor 1.7 fall on good gear and miss gettng slammed into a wall than have a factor 1.3 and get faced.

P.S. ok so it only adds one foot to the fall as well as rope but it still increases the fall factor

exaample.
10/15 = .66
11/16 = .69
12/17 = .71

C.S. is right but man those are SCREAMER falls not everyday situations. I'd still rather not have ectra slack in those situations. I conceed defeat.

40/25 = 1.6
41/26 = 1.57
45/30 = 1.5
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: no it adds two feet of "slack" thus if you fall you fall the distance of rope paid out x2. Draw a picture or use a string or something. It's common sense. 1' of rope = 2 feet of fall not counting stretch. If you have extra rope in the system youhave to add that to the fall as well as the rope length. More rope plus further fall always means higher fall factor. Slacking any beley means a higher FF. That said I'd rather have a factor 1.7 fall on good gear and miss gettng slammed into a wall than have a factor 1.3 and get faced. P.S. ok so it only adds one foot to the fall as well as rope but it still increases the fall factor exaample. 10/15 = .66 11/16 = .69 12/17 = .71 see the trend?
Try the math again with fall factor above 1 and with fall factors below 1
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: no it adds two feet of "slack" thus if you fall you fall the distance of rope paid out x2. Draw a picture or use a string or something. It's common sense. 1' of rope = 2 feet of fall not counting stretch. If you have extra rope in the system youhave to add that to the fall as well as the rope length. More rope plus further fall always means higher fall factor. Slacking any beley means a higher FF. That said I'd rather have a factor 1.7 fall on good gear and miss gettng slammed into a wall than have a factor 1.3 and get faced. P.S. ok so it only adds one foot to the fall as well as rope but it still increases the fall factor exaample. 10/15 = .66 11/16 = .69 12/17 = .71 see the trend? Not though that even having one piece just 5 feet above the belay reduces the maximum FF to just under 1 at .98, assuming a 60 meter rope. have fun and be safe.
I'm glad you finally have the math figured out. Now try the same math with your original example: 40 feet fall with 30 feet of rope out.
frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Jake Jones wrote: Who cares if it is? If you don't like it, don't participate. You don't have to pour derision on everything that doesn't suit how you think it should go. If people want to geek out on shit, what's it to you? Maybe it will help someone. Maybe it won't. What should we talk about then? And what words should we use?
Just asking what it was all about. The original Post had nothing to do with this stuff. And while it may provide something, although I'm not sure what, the focus should be something along the lines of finding a good belayer. That doesn't seem all that hard really. Find someone who knows how to handle a belay device and will be attentive and you should be all set. And if people go off on tangents endlessly beating the same subject, I can say "huh?"
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
frank minunni wrote: Just asking what it was all about. The original Post had nothing to do with this stuff. And while it may provide something, although I'm not sure what, the focus should be something along the lines of finding a good belayer. That doesn't seem all that hard really. Find someone who knows how to handle a belay device and will be attentive and you should be all set.
You might not think it very hard, but "good belaying" will mean different things to different people, and may change depending on the type of climbing you do. We have seen that in the standing/sitting thread alone you and I disagree what is acceptable belaying, which is fine. With the numbers of people being injured and dropped while climbing these days, I'd say that for some people, finding a "good belayer" really IS that hard.
frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
csproul wrote: You might not think it very hard, but "good belaying" will mean different things to different people, and may change dependending on the type of climbing you do. We have seen that in the standing/sitting thread alone you and I disagree what is acceptable belaying, which is fine. With the numbers of people being injured and dropped while climbing these days, I'd say that for some people, finding a "good belayer" really IS that hard.
I don't think we're as far off as you may think. Attentiveness, and the ability to use the device in their hands we would probably agree on as being the most important aspects of belaying. As for sitting or standing, that's simply a behavior that can be requested if you're not comfortable with someone sitting. Finding a competent and attentive belayer may not be that easy to find, but the qualities you're looking for aren't that hard to define.
frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95

^^^I'm not going through that again. Once was enough. And the comment about mathematical masturbation was to bring it back in line with the OP. And here we are.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Jake Jones wrote: Hahaha fair enough you curmudgeon!
I think I'm going to have a decal for the car and a plaque made up for above my front door: "Beware of Curmudgeon". It seems to have stuck. lol
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

As a professional mathematical masturbater, I make no excuses for my participation in circle jerks. (Actually, I mostly figuratively bite my lip, because so much of the posted mathematics and physics is wrong.)

As for drift, an internet thread is just a conversation with nonexistent civility norms, and conversations, if they have any interesting content at all, rarely stay on their original topic---nor would you want them to. That said, it is inconvenient that the conversation takes place under a title that may no longer characterize the content.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
rgold wrote:As a professional mathematical masturbater, I make no excuses for my participation in circle jerks. (Actually, I mostly figuratively bite my lip, because so much of the posted mathematics and physics is wrong.) As for drift, an internet thread is just a conversation with nonexistent civility norms, and conversations, if they have any interesting content at all, rarely stay on their original topic---nor would you want them to. That said, it is inconvenient that the conversation takes place under a title that may no longer characterize the content.
As a professional masturbater (no math required), I'm just killing a little time fucking about.
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
rgold wrote:As a professional mathematical masturbater, I make no excuses for my participation in circle jerks. (Actually, I mostly figuratively bite my lip, because so much of the posted mathematics and physics is wrong.) As for drift, an internet thread is just a conversation with nonexistent civility norms, and conversations, if they have any interesting content at all, rarely stay on their original topic---nor would you want them to. That said, it is inconvenient that the conversation takes place under a title that may no longer characterize the content.
Man, do you have that on your CV?

Frank, one word re. drift: snow! : )
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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