How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

Buff Johnson wrote:Jesus is my belay nobody fucks with the Jesus

OVER THE LINE!!!

Mark it 5.8, dude.

;)

Michelle Angelfish wrote: I was taught to go through the preliminary checks and then when told by the belayer, on belay, stick out your right hand for a handshake. If they know the drill they'll make an awkward move to shake with their left- but most people will let go of the rope to shake your hand. It's a light hearted moment to emphasize wanting an attentive belay. I've noticed that with climbers stuck in ego, they get a little miffed from being "tricked", and it's those people I worry about more- vs someone who 'gets' why you would do this in the first place.

That's a very good little assement scheme! I like it! I'll remember that one. But, those of us who are left handed pass this test with flying colors. ;)

Yep, it's a sunny climbing forecast all the way around and this thread is more clear proof it's absolutely not raining climbers. So, nothing to see, let's just move along. Oh, and on your way out please ignore the senile has-beens; they don't know what the fuck they're talking about given how far the sport has advanced since their addled psychotropic youths.

ColinW wrote: OVER THE LINE!!! Mark it 5.8, dude. ;)

It's a league game

I dont know how many views my post all the way down at the bottom will get but the best advice is, dont be cheap with your climbing gear, its your life at stake,

Buy a auto locking belay device, set it up with your belayer making sure he knows how to use it and send on.

P.s. if your with a new partner or a rookie climber, or a drunk/hi person, dont get on tough climbs where you might fall!!!

cobrawrestlr5 wrote:...but the best advice is, dont be cheap with your climbing gear, its your life at stake, Buy a auto locking belay device...

If only this were the best advice and that auto[b]locking devices weren't part of the problem. But overall, and to borrow a sad line: devices don't drop people, belayers do.

I sometimes ask how many unexpected 20ft plus trad falls they have held. More than twenty seems to equate with having done the most important job in climbing enough times to hopefully do it right one more time.

David Coley wrote:I sometimes ask how many unexpected 20ft plus trad falls they have held. More than twenty seems to equate with having done the most important job in climbing enough times to hopefully do it right one more time.

you do realize that time i belayed you out here ... i was fbooking at the same time !!!

i posted something like "OMG OMG OMG Im belaying a FAMOUR BRIT CLIMBER right now !!!"

;)

bearbreeder wrote: you do realize that time i belayed you out here ... i was fbooking at the same time !!! i posted something like "OMG OMG OMG Im belaying a FAMOUR BRIT CLIMBER right now !!!" ;)

Yep, but I'd been stalking you on MP for months before then.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I must internet wang-slap you for perpetuating this myth. More slack does not do the giving of a soft catch.

Absolutely. The myth is ubiquitous.

clearly people drop people not devices..just like people kill people guns dont kill people.

with that said, on a auto lock device, I dont see how someone could fall if there belayer put the rope through the device properly.

The device catches the climber as a backup if the belayer lets go of the brake strand.

of coarse the best device in the world is useless if its not setup properly, there lies the belayer dropping someone not the device.

SO im pretty sure the best advice is get a auto lock belay device to ensure your safety and back yourself up. This is a precaution you yourself can take without asking or relying on anyone else.

I think thats gr8 advice, maybe not the worlds absolute best in your opinion but obvious to most

Auto lock belay device > atc
gri-gri
Mammut alpine belay device

cobrawrestlr5 wrote:..just like people kill people guns dont kill people.

Going completely off topic, doesn't that imply that the gun related death rate should be the same in all nations. Which it isn't.

Assuming the mental health of all nations is roughly the same..........

cobrawrestlr5 wrote:I dont see how someone could fall if there belayer put the rope through the device properly. The device catches the climber as a backup if the belayer lets go of the brake strand.

Only if they also let go of the rope to the climber. If they forget to let go with the upper hand and grab the rope more aggressively with the upper hand than the brake hand then with a grigri-like device the device might well not catch. Hence the many tales of burnt upper hands and dropped climbers.

With a belay plate both hands can help, although the brake hand is much more important; with a grigri-like device the upper hand can undermine the brake hand.

Cobra --
> I dont see how someone could fall if ...

The one time I was dropped (in a gym) it was on a gri-gri and while in the process of being lowered. Cam held wide open with one hand, and the other hand was taken off the rope. Thankfully, it was on the last ~6 ft.

The other close call I had was also on a gri-gri. I told my belayer I intended to down-climb, and watched him crank the cam wide open and shout up, "ok, go ahead!". I did not down-climb.

You're not out of danger until your feet are back on the ground, so don't limit consideration to falls while climbing.

Dave

Toad wrote:So how do YOU assess/ensure the competency of your belayer when climbing with them the first time?

By asking them questions and watching them. It's not hard to determine a person's general experience by asking them relevant questions. In addition, while it's true it is not always possible to watch your belayer before climbing (although it is possible 99% of the time), you can watch them while climbing. So I warm up on something easy and I watch how they belay.

There is no way to guarantee that someone is a competent belayer. There is no way to guarantee someone who is normally competent won't make a mistake. Your belayer is most likely a human and you are putting yourself at risk. Just because someone drops a climber does not alone define them as incompetent.

No one will drop you on a golf course.

well anyway you look at it the gri gri is good better then the atc but not the best and maybe over enginenered like what David coley is talking about.

So david, your saying with a gri gri, if a climber falls and the belayer grabs the upper strand too aggressivly then that renders the device useless sometimes?
what a useless device

Is not alls you need to do is pull back on the brake strand.
i guess i use both hands

I use the mammut alpine belay device which auto locks on belays and rappels.
I recommend everyone getting one they are very useful and nice and simple

cobrawrestlr5 wrote: I use the mammut alpine belay device which auto locks on belays and rappels. I recommend everyone getting one they are very useful and nice and simple

thats a VERY dangerous attitude to take ... theres situations where the smart will NOT "autolock" and ways to screw up with em

in theory all these assisted locking devices should be MUCH safer ... the reality is that folks still get dropped left right and centre with em

its this attitude that they are "hands free" and always "autolock" that negates alot of the "safety gains"

In July, Scott Jones (22) was dropped from the top of Iron Maiden (5.9) in Boulder Canyon by a belayer he had met through a climbing community web site. Scott describes the incident:

“I should establish that this was not a typical rapping/lowering miscommunication. I was the first to lead the route, and we established that he was going to lead it after I hung the draws.” Before climbing, Scott also verified that the belayer had loaded his device, a Grigri, correctly. “When I reached the chains I yelled down, ‘Take.’ I didn’t feel any pressure from the rope, so took both hands and grasped the line and began lowering myself. As I neared a bulge 10 feet below the chains, I felt (possibly mistakenly) the rope come tight.” At this point, though he still could not see or hear the belayer, Scott assumed he was being lowered and let go of the rope. He fell about 60 feet to the ground.

“Luckily the initial bleeding wasn’t too bad and I was able to self-rescue across the creek to the highway. A generous climber replaced my blood-drenched shirt with his own and offered to drive me to the hospital. Unfortunately, the traffic was bumper to bumper, but as luck would have it a man on a Harley was passing by, so I hopped on. I quickly made my way through traffic until I reached the cause of the backup and the hospital.”

Analysis

“The next day I spoke to the belayer (if you can call him that) and was able to piece together what happened: He paid out slack at the top of the route by pulling on the Grigri’s lever while letting go with his brake hand.” The belayer must have held the Grigri too far open and lost control of the lower.

“I’m guessing the only thing that kept me from the morgue was the fact that the rope was hopelessly kinked, creating a good deal of friction. It may have also tangled itself below the Grigri just before I slammed into the ground. I guess the only advice I could give is not to be afraid to decline a belay from someone who gives you a bad feeling. I see now that a perceived insult is a much better outcome than a trip to the hospital.” (Source: Scott Jones on Mountainproject. com.)

(Editor’s note: “Blind date” partners are always a cause for extra caution. Make sure you and your partner fully understand each other’s experience level, and visually verify the other climber’s belay and lowering methods before starting to climb. A belayer must never let go of the rope with his brake hand even when using “assisted braking” devices such as the Grigri. See page 68 for more about belaying with a Grigri.)

publications.americanalpine…

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On April 20, a male lead climber (23) was put on belay by his partner (male, 19) with a brand-new Grigri. The belayer had never used a Grigri before. As the climber moved up the belayer squeezed the Grigri shut with his left hand while pulling out rope for the leader with his right. The leader fell, continued unarrested 30 feet, and landed on a boulder. The belayer, in a desperate attempt to arrest the fall, gripped the rope flying out of the Grigri, damaging the skin on the palm of his hand.

Two Muir Valley Rescue volunteers were nearby and called out the rescue group immediately after the fall. Additional rescuers, including an emergency room nurse who happened to be on site, responded to the call. Ten minutes into the operation, rescuers called for a helicopter and the Wolfe County SAR Team to assist if needed. The carry out from the cliff went very smoothly. The climber was transported to the waiting helicopter and flown to a level-one trauma center in Lexington. He suffered lacerations and a concussion. He wasn’t wearing a helmet. (Source: Rick Weber, Muir Valley.)

Analysis

The Grigri is designed as an assisted-braking device, and both trained and untrained belayers often get a false sense of security while using it. Overall, the Grigri is a safe and effective device in the hands of an experienced user. It’s important to note that the manufacturer has never marketed the Grigri as a “hands-free” belay device. Petzl recommends that it is for expert use only, and notes that, “as with all climbing and mountaineering activities, it is essential to master the techniques and understand the limitations on using this product in these activities. Practice the techniques...in a managed environment before using them in a real situation.” (Source: Aram Attarian.)

publications.americanalpine…

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On March 21,I took a lead fall, landing at the base of the climb Suppress the Rage (5.12a) located at the Sunny Side. I was at the second-to-last bolt when I decided to rest before making the last hard move. I must admit that I started climbing kind of suddenly, maybe surprising my belayer. Anyway, when I was less than one meter above the bolt I fell off. Before I had time to realize what was happening, I found myself screaming and hitting the ground with my right leg and then my butt. Fortunately the rope got tight at the very last second, so I didn’t fully impact the ground. But still, I broke my pelvis and two vertebrae.

Analysis

Here is why I think this happened. First of all, my belayer got distracted as soon as I decided to rest for a few seconds. I saw him talking with people while I started falling. Second, there was too much slack in the rope, because it doesn’t make sense to take a 12-meter fall, when you’re only one meter above the bolt. Third, he told me that, as soon as he realized I was falling, he grabbed the rope above and below the Grigri, compromising its activation.

The moral is to pay attention to what you are doing. Always confirm that your belayer knows how to belay properly. The Grigri can be a deceiving belay device to use for the inexperienced. Some think it works by itself and don’t pay attention to how it functions in the correct way!

I’ve been climbing for more than ten years and consider myself to be experienced. This was the first time climbing with this person, so we didn’t know each other well enough, and there was probably lack of communication. It wouldn’t happen to me with my usual climbing mates. (Source: Edited from a report by Francesco Peci)

publications.americanalpine…

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A large group was gathered at Military Wall on September 12 playing music, possibly loud enough to make communication between climber and belayer difficult. Climber was getting into the upper knee bar on Reliquary (5.12b) when he fell near the last bolt. The climber landed on the belayer’s dog, killing it instantly.

The belayer was holding the GriGri in her right hand with fingers over the cam, preventing it from locking, and said she didn’t know how it could have happened. Worse yet, she said this was the third time it has happened to her.

Analysis

Crags are becoming more crowded and distractions occur. Music, dogs, kids, cats, bears, etc. Pay attention to the climber! That person’s life is in your hands! And don’t pick up a belay device if you don’t have proper training. (Source: From a post on redriverclimbing.com.)

publications.americanalpine…

TONS more of accident reports on grigris (and other devices)

the fallacy is in believing the device makes you "safe" ... its the belayer that does!!!

if someone had an attitude that a belay device was hands free that would be VERY DANGEROUS.

For the record im glad belay devices are not hands free and never said they were

cobrawrestlr5 wrote:if someone had an attitude that a belay device was hands free that would be VERY DANGEROUS. For the record im glad belay devices are not hands free and never said they were

you have claimed they are "autolocking" ... they arent

your own words ...

with that said, on a auto lock device, I dont see how someone could fall if there belayer put the rope through the device properly.

The device catches the climber as a backup if the belayer lets go of the brake strand.

to take the attitude that the devices catches if they "let go of the brake strand" is very dangerous .... as the above examples show

folks get dropped all the time on these devices even if they "put the rope through the device properly"

;)