Chopping a few of my own bolts to make a route mixed to get the FA back

Some climber stole my FA even though he was told it was a closed project. The line was kind of a crack seam in limestone so some gear would work in places. Any opinions if I can bring the FA back to life by changing the route?

Bummer! That's some weak sauce ethics on the other climbers part.
Keep crushing...your the man for establishing the line.

Would it be a fun mixed climb? If it's at a cliff where there are decent trad routes (so people would be bringing a rack), and it would make a good route, that would seem reasonable. If it would be a better sport route than mixed route, it seems kind of a shame ot make it an inferior route just to get the FA (or worse, the FA with an asterisk), although I can certainly see why you're upset about it.

No. It is gone just move on to the next one and get it done.

FA's are a one shot deal, there cant be two. Sorry to hear you got snaked. Sucks for sure.

Poachers shouldn't get any credit for stealing the FA. You put up the route. As long as you redpoint it, you deserve the credit.Leave the bolts in. I wouldn't blame you if broke the bastards fingers.

I don't think chopping bolts will get your FA back. What happened to you sucks, but also it points to a larger problem in how we think about route development in general.

Specifically, when the FA is other than the person who found/bolted/cleaned a route, why does the FA get more credit? The fact that they do leads to both excessive long-term redtagging and the problem of stolen ascents. If the developer was more associated with the route, as I believe is the norm in Europe, neither would be an issue.

Mark Grundon wrote:Any opinions if I can bring the FA back to life by changing the route?

I would say no. The first person to climb a route is the first person, regardless of how it's protected. If a route is free soloed or climbed on gear, then later bolted and climbed again on sport, the guy who climbed it on sport does not get the FA as the FA has already been established.

Just add a sit-start.

Was he sitting at the crag waiting for you to finish bolting it and jumped on it as soon as you were done?

I think calling something a closed project is just stupid. If you have to tell others you can't climb my route because I want to get FA I don't consider it an FA at all.

I understand you bolted it and all but really? If you are stopping others from climbing because you can't climb something yet? How about I got find a crag and bolt the entire thing and tell everyone you can't climb until I am done climbing even though You climb 5.14 and I only climb 5.8 and bolted the entire cliff first.

There is one way to make sure you get the FA ground up bolting the route!

I say this coming from a cliff I know of where there has been a closed project for like 4 years and all the people I know who have any chance of climbing it won't even attempt it because it is "Closed Project". I really don't mind giving someone time to get FA if they bolted it but I have seen to many of these go on for years.

You aren't going to get your FA back by chopping bolts, sorry that just makes it look even more like you have an ego about getting FAs. Just go climb for fun the world isn't going to end. Who really knows maybe someone trad lead it a long time ago and we just don't know who the FA is.

Definitely wasn't trad led or touched by a human before. I'm really just venting on the internet. It was done ground up. It's not about ego, to me there is extra excitement doing an FA. The time and money of putting the route up is rewarded with the excitement of going for the FA. People can still climb closed routes it's the just give a small courtesy hang on the first bolt. Agreed closed projects for years are lame, I just wanted to at least give it a few honest tries.

Mark Grundon wrote:Definitely wasn't trad led or touched by a human before. I'm really just venting on the internet. It was done ground up. It's not about ego, to me there is extra excitement doing an FA. The time and money of putting the route up is rewarded with the excitement of going for the FA. People can still climb closed routes it's the just give a small courtesy hang on the first bolt. Agreed closed projects for years are lame, I just wanted to at least give it a few honest tries.

How do you know that someone else lead it, was it done on purpose or did you have the first bolt flagged saying don't climb this etc? I personally will give someone time to climb it if they spent the time and money bolting it (not years though!). But if a random person came in and saw some bolts and didn't know how long it had been maybe they did it by accident.

I have come across routes before with no markings saying to climb or not (heck even with the markings they may not even know what it means. Don't forget there are people that come out of the gym and see something and will just climb it.

Charlie Egan wrote:I don't think chopping bolts will get your FA back. What happened to you sucks, but also it points to a larger problem in how we think about route development in general. Specifically, when the FA is other than the person who found/bolted/cleaned a route, why does the FA get more credit? The fact that they do leads to both excessive long-term redtagging and the problem of stolen ascents. If the developer was more associated with the route, as I believe is the norm in Europe, neither would be an issue.

This makes the most sense to me.

He was told it was closed, as stated in my first post. He was straight from the gym and people don't know the difference between the gyms and outside. I'm not a route setter getting paid by the gyms. I had a gym climber who I let borrow my top rope start freaking out at me when I wanted to use my rope again. Maybe someone will read this thread and realize it's not cool to steal FA's.

Mark Grundon wrote:It was done ground up.

Congrats then, you got the FA.

Yes congrats you got the FA! Sounds like the other guy got the FFA. Just name the climb something that takes a jab at the route stealer and put up more climbs. Cheers

Maybe the MP community could suggest names for your route. 'Gym Thief'

If you just left it sitting there out in the open, it was fair game.

Lame for sure but move on. What's to gain? Thanks for the entertainment though. Hi to your better half. Hope otherwise all is well.

Why not just claim the FA, let the douche come forward and claim otherwise, and you can snake him for the _____ that he is?
But, on the other hand, if you want the FA for the FA, and not the naming rights, it's gone like a...oh, i was going to say something of a sexual nature, inappropriate, etc; leave it at 'it's gone'.
And spray all over the place the name of the perp.

If you do or have redpointed this route, I don't think the selfish poacher deserves one lick of credit. On the other hand, if you can't redpoint the route (or it could take you years to) then the poacher gets credit for the first free ascent & you get credit for the first ascent.
That said, anyone who gets on a route, with a red tag on the first bolt, should realize that they are taking a big risk. First, a red tag could mean that there is dangerous loose rock that hasn't been cleaned or a bolt didn't tighten up properly. If you get caught climbing on a project by the equipper, you'd better hope they remain peaceful. You could wind up getting your ass kicked. The red tag means blood!