old men grumbing about j tree, bad jokes,and other related matters

Jon Hartmann wrote:
Man. I can't wait to see more cracks being bolted in JTree. I look forward to the day when I get to come into the park with nothing but a set of draws and a grigri.

frank minunni wrote: I can only hope that's a joke because otherwise it's one of the most revolting posts I've seen.

I've often thought that in the 60's & 70's, if bolts were as relatively easy to place as pitons, we'd see a whole lot more bolts on climbs.

Marc801 wrote: But we're not talking about some small-town EMS that deals primarily with car and farming accidents. With models to follow in the NPS like YOSAR and the rescue operations in Grand Teton and Rocky Mountain, it's a stretch to think JOSAR is populated by a bunch of junior Ricky Rangers. And it was a piling on of soooo many things in Guy's post about his roommate's cousin's brother's uncle's girlfriend.

I'm not talking small town either, I work for the Los Angeles City Fire Department and see the same stuff happen quite often. My point is that it's not a rare occurrence. It happens quite often at all levels of EMS.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:Double Cross needs like 4 bolts, one to protect the face move at the bottom and 3 more along the crack section, anymore than that would be overkill.

I'm sorry, but double cross is way more than 24 feet tall. The only safe way to bolt double cross would be with a standard bolt spacing of 4 feet after the first bolt placed no more than 8 feet off the ground. Unfortunately, I no longer live in the area, but I can certainly help by providing bolts to the good Samaritan who is willing to go replace the pulled bolt and add any additional bolts that are required to bring the route up to the modern safety standards presented above.

kennoyce wrote: I'm sorry, but double cross is way more than 24 feet tall. The only safe way to bolt double cross would be with a standard bolt spacing of 4 feet after the first bolt placed no more than 8 feet off the ground. Unfortunately, I no longer live in the area, but I can certainly help by providing bolts to the good Samaritan who is willing to go replace the pulled bolt and add any additional bolts that are required to bring the route up to the modern safety standards presented above.

Ken is absolutely right. If you're going to bolt it, you should overbolt it. For safety. I mean, as long as you have the drill...drill, baby, drill.

Besides, putting those cam-thingies into cracks is so iffy. Safety first. Let's stop the unnecessary carnage on this climb.

FrankPS wrote: Besides, putting those cam-thingies into cracks is so iffy. Safety first. Let's stop the unnecessary carnage on this climb.

Seriously, thanks for backing me up on this one, Double Cross has been ruthlessly killing and maiming people for far too long, it's time that something be done to prevent any future mishaps from occurring.

(This line of conversation reminds me of another thread about Double Cross).

Of course I have your back, Ken. The bodies pile up faster than the meat wagons can remove them. The place smells of death. Not for the faint of heart.

FrankPS wrote:(This line of conversation reminds me of another thread about Double Cross). Of course I have your back, Ken. The bodies pile up faster than the meat wagons can remove them. The place smells of death. Not for the faint of heart.

Crikey, it's not the runouts, it's those evil grigris killing people again.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Crikey, it's not the runouts, it's those evil grigris killing people again.

Definiely. Too many Gri-Gris and not enough bolts.

I use the Cinch, though. And there's a complete other thread about that accident waiting to happen! (yawn)

FrankPS wrote:(This line of conversation reminds me of another thread about Double Cross).

Here you go:
mountainproject.com/v/doubl…

James.... SRB25... I don't lie.

brian burke.... what are you some kind of moderator???

Jim Mitch.... glad your OK... pretty hard landing at the bottom of Mikes Books.

Kevin M..... you know this could be a true story, given the history of those bastards who run the Park....

by by (yawn)

Guy's account of the incident is accurate. I know the people involved. They were hiking out from Astrodomes. The lack of a helmet and length of the fall were the rationale for taking control of the situation.

Things have changed. In the late 80's I busted up an ankle pretty thoroughly bouldering out by Headstone Rock. I hopped and crawled back to my car and started driving towards 29. I saw a couple ranger vehicles in a turnout and pulled in to asked whether I should go the JT or 29. They asked if I needed assistance which I declined. They told me JT was closer and gave me directions to the local medical facility.

Guy Keesee wrote:James.... SRB25... I don't lie. brian burke.... what are you some kind of moderator??? Jim Mitch.... glad your OK... pretty hard landing at the bottom of Mikes Books. Kevin M..... you know this could be a true story, given the history of those bastards who run the Park.... by by (yawn)

I believe you. My point was that you have the legal right to refuse care. If law enforcement and EMS break the law, not much you can do except sue them later.

James, thanks for the clarification. Guy Keesee and I are close friends and I can attest to his reliability and honesty. He also has extreme cred in self rescue but that's another story.

@ Jim Mitch, everyone is pulling for you. Recover well.

FrankPS wrote: I use the Cinch, though. And there's a complete other thread about that accident waiting to happen! (yawn)

Isn't that basically premeditated murder?

Mark E Dixon wrote: Isn't that basically premeditated murder?

Only if I use a non-locking Cinch. I have the auto-locking variety.

Not an EMT here but recalling a time I had jury duty.

The EMT testifying (domestic abuse case, EMT was only there as a witness) mentioned that the woman involved was brought to the hospital because she'd been drinking and was unable to refuse treatment. It certainly didn't sound like she was passed out or incapacitated. She went to the hospital and couldn't refuse.

It doesn't seem like a stretch at all to use a predetermined fall height and lack of helmet to assume you aren't AAOx3.

Other than videotaping the entire thing while repeatedly telling them that you'll call the police and press charges if they touch you, the situation Guy brings up might be impossible to avoid.

Being under the influence of a mind altering drug or alcohol does change things. You can still refuse care if you have had a few drinks, you can still refuse care if you bumped yer noggin too though an emt or paramedic should do their best to try and get them to go to the hospital, if not by ambulance by private auto and DOCUMENT exactly what was said and done.

Alcohol puts things in a gray area, does having a beer or two impare your judgement? If someone is obviously drunk or heavily influenced by drugs or alcohol I have no problem being a little more forceful in making sure we take them, but if they have only had a drink or two and answer all questions correct without hesitation I'm not going to force them to go.

There are too many variables to mention but in Guys friends case if it was a simple fall with a busted arm or leg and the dude did not want help then JOSAR should have honored that and left them alone or at least give them a hand getting to the car and pointing them to the nearest hospital.

We always joked about this subject when I worked at Fire Station 9 in Skid Row. Just about every person down there is not alert and oriented. We could pick up anyone off the street if we wanted to and take them into an ER because technically they met criteria to be transported. Common sense must prevail.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Not an EMT here but recalling a time I had jury duty. The EMT testifying (domestic abuse case, EMT was only there as a witness) mentioned that the woman involved was brought to the hospital because she'd been drinking and was unable to refuse treatment. It certainly didn't sound like she was passed out or incapacitated. She went to the hospital and couldn't refuse. It doesn't seem like a stretch at all to use a predetermined fall height and lack of helmet to assume you aren't AAOx3. Other than videotaping the entire thing while repeatedly telling them that you'll call the police and press charges if they touch you, the situation Guy brings up might be impossible to avoid.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that EMTS/MEDICS can't be forceful or an agency using a predetermined fall height to determine whether you need medical attention, but a rescuer (JOSAR) "throwing" another rescuer (the climbing partner assisting in self evac) to the ground to get to the patient seems unreasonable.
If this is going on regularly in LA as stated above, who's training the paramedics and firefighters? The LAPD?

Mediocre.... this was about 15-18 years ago.... it was Monument Rangers (NPS?)

AKA JOSAR.

The only reason I relayed the tale is to inform all the climbers who are going there now (MP is a focus point for new climbers right) is to let then know about the PROTOCOL these fellows employ.

So if you do not wish to be flown away in a chopper, if you become walking wounded, is to tell them you "tripped while going to the bathroom" and stick to that story.

I think that ALL of these EVACS in choppers cost a ton of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Once the park service adds up the bills they will be shocked at how much the climbers cost the PARK SERVICE.

They will levy a FEE for climbing.

Mark my words.