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New Alpinism + Rock Prodigy?

Original Post
max hux · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 75

I've been reading a ton about both the rock prodigy method (about to start my first training cycle here soon) and the New Alpinism book.
(Disclaimer: I've read the RP article a few times through, and all of the materials on the website, but don't have the actual book. Basically the same thing with New Alpinism- all interviews online and all that I could read on Google Books for free). Ya ya I'll buy them soon... :)

Wondering if anyone has managed to put the two together- obviously RP leans toward high-level sport climbing, and House's book toward cardio endurance for big days in the mountains. Considering alpine climbing goals next summer, I can't help but get greedy in wanting to train both!

For example: on RP rest days, you could be 'active resting' by performing zone 1 stuff (low enough intensity to be active rest?), which apparently makes up the bulk of your endurance abilities on the NA side of the equation. Just thinking now, the bulk of two training programs during strength/power would probably be excessively demanding, but a little compromise might go a long way. Or backfire completely!

Anyone care to chime in? Curious if anyone else has thought along these lines. Probably just a good way to get overtrained but worth a shot...

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

What up Max!

I think that it might be tricky to implement both training ideas at the same time but its certainly possible. The Anderson brothers have done Cassin Ridge and Steve House climbed 5.13, so performance in both fields is not mutually exclusive. The original RC.com rock prodigy has a bunch of aerobic workouts that could be substituted for the New Alpinism zone 1-3 stuff. People have found at an extreme performance level that the aerobic exercise held them back from climbing their projects, but for most people it usually isn't the issue. I personally think the strength training should be more rock climbing specific with lots of hangboard and tool hangs, rather than a broader variety like New Alpinism, if you wanted to make gains in both disciplines. I think the way I would do it, blend both programs together, having the Aerobic/New Alpinism program go longer. Your rock climbing peaks at the end of the Base period of your mountaineering, and hten you go into your specificity period for alpine climbing where your not trying to climb as hard but do more pitches with a pack on or boots on or some shit like that.

PM me your email or whatever I still don't have it!

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

I'll be honest,

I did both for a while, but have found I had to really dedicate myself to one or the other to see progress. If I was spending more time climbing i wasn't really committing to my aerobic training and vice versa. Once my mileage for the week hit 25 miles or so my climbing went to shit. The reason I'm training is to primarily improve my climbing. My aerobic training led me to lose focus on why i'm training and what I'm training for, and led to injury

Speed and efficiency on the rock can more than make up for a lack of aerobic capacity if the alpine endeavors are of a more technical climbing nature. Look at Honnold and TC's Fitz traverse... No one will argue that the two of these men are top shape alpinists with unmatched aerobic capacity, but they climb like demons and make up for the speed they lost elsewhere.

I've had to adapt both programs to fit my needs. I still run 3x a week, I try to climb 3x a week, but I cannot dedicate days to strength training without overdoing it and hampering progress in all realms.

DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

Sport climbing is mostly about explosive power, while alpine climbing is all endurance. The two are separate. True hard alpinism is a delicate balance between strength and endurance so it would most likely not work out too well.

Once you build a foundation, it's easy to switch to a different cycle every 6 months; that's how Steve House climbs the Slovak Direkt at one point and 5.13 in the same year. But like the guy above said, you can train both at the same time you just won't really see tremendous gains in either.

Cheers.

Goran Lynch · · Alpine Meadows, CA · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 6

I've been working on this exact problem for a little while, and I put together a training plan to concurrently work toward both rock and alpine goals. I'll have one rock performance period independent of alpine performance, and a second rock performance period that aligns with alpine. I've modulated the alpine climbing volume over the course of the plan, and the rock climbing intensity. My understanding is that's consistent with the nature of progression in the two programs (the alpine program is built around a large aerobic base, whereas the rock program focuses more on building strength and converting into power and PE). Send me a PM and I'd be happy to share the tracking doc I devised.

I'm only a few weeks in, so these thoughts should be taken with a grain of salt. My first observation is that recreational climbing will have to be kept to a minimum --- social evenings at the gym take too much time to get the other workouts in. With that time carved out for structured training, I don't foresee major issues stacking workouts, e.g. a lifting workout after hangboarding. Moreover, while the cardio volume is significant, I haven't found running below aerobic threshold to negatively impact my climbing. For whatever reason, that has not been true with cycling; lots of time on a bike has, in the past, resulted in lousy climbing performance despite effort on the climbing front.

If you've got other experiences stitching these programs together, I'd love to know what has worked for you and what hasn't.

max hux · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 75

Unfortunately this is all hypothetical for now, so I can't say I have any experience stacking the programs Goran!

I understand the RP method well but I'll have to download the NA book online to become more acquainted with House's methodology. I think stacking hangboard and lifting workouts could work, but once you get into power endurance I think I would favor the RP method and back way off my aerobic training.

I like the idea of staggering them as you said Jon, since you'd mostly just be working Zone 1/3 stuff throughout the RP program (the focus at that point), and then have an aerobic base primed to build upon once your training season ends. It doesn't seem unrealistic to do 'nose breathing' intensity as active rest/cardio 3-4x/week throughout most if not all of the RP program and not be overtrained.

All very interesting...carry on!

beytzim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 30

I think it's important to remember that both books only recommend their plans as templates. Template to be modified for your individual needs. And so I have. I modified both programs to fit my needs.

I personally follow the concurrent or conjugate method of periodization which is different than the block periodization that both books recommend.

Using concurrent periodization I modified the RCTM workouts from 2-3 week cycles to two workouts, ie two session of ARC, then two session of hangboard etc. At the same time I follow a general strength workout once or twice a week. Finally, I add one HIIT (zone 3-4) session and one long weighted hike (zone 1) once a week. Through out the year I will change the percentage of climbing/strength/hiking workout per week depending on my goals for that quarter. I hope that doesn't sound too complicated, but it really isn't.

Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

Glad to run across this Thread. I am currently on week 13 of TFTNA base period and will turn more to "specificity" come week 20 per their protocol. At that stage I'm gonna experiment w following a periodized climbing-specific program aimed at peaking in time for a trip to the sierra to climb PV on the hulk, while continuing to keep up my weekly hours through lots of z1 cardio and the occasional z3 day.

TFTNA has been great and, despite only climbing one gym day 1 day outsid/wk, has resulted in some solid gains in both cardio fitness/recovery time and climbjng strength. That said, most of my climbing (realistically) is cragging and or 1-2 day alpine rock missions and I think I might benefit from more rock-specific training year round.

Love to see tracking docs( if anyone is willing to share rcnc.com) and or hear more from anyone who has had success implementing a combo of these programs , and also curious to hear more about yalls experiences with a more "dynamic periodization program" ( as opposed to more traditional blocks w peaks evey 3-4 months).

Cheers
Mike

Mikecease · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 10

#1 What is your goal????

#2 Personally....I would not focus on Steve's method if you are not a SOLID rock climber. Nobody seems to understand that Steve's methods do not apply to people who are marginal rock climbers. Go climb as many pitches as you can for several years and then worry about Steve House training when you have an objective on a big mountain.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
max huecksteadt wrote: Considering alpine climbing goals next summer, I can't help but get greedy in wanting to train both!
What are your goals specifically? Using specific goals to guide training rather than a general idea that you want to put in big days in the mountains will make planning training as well as executing the plan more effective (in my experience). Consider the Liberty Ridge, Positive Vibrations, and the Grand Traverse are all alpine climbing objectives, but would entail very different training plans.

(Didn't see Mike's post)
Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

Mikecease- I see your point and agree that climbing many many pitches is important. That said, while many may not, I understand the point of Steve houses book And did not start training thinking it would be my ticket to hard(er) route climbing. That said, even "marginal" climbers would likely see a fitness benefit from following said program. If that's the intent( rather than merely climbing harder) I think it probably has validity for just about anyone. I agree that I've seen a lot of threads referencing getting stronger by following this books methods: strange because the authors clearly state the books purpose in early chapters and reference different ( better) resources for those focused solely on rock climbing. Good points though.

FWIW, My reason for starting the program had less to do w specific climbing goals and more to do with structuring my own weekly training at a time when I was a Grad student recovering from injury, with shit aerobic fitness, and w/ very little chance to get outside/in a gym to climb. In that respect, I've been super happy with the results of a structured effort aimed at increasing aerobic capacity and general all around strength and fitness.

Thankfully I now live in the land of plentiful sunshine and actually have time to get out, hence my refocusing on climbjng-specific training aimed at gradually increasing my repoint grade. I also like to stay aerobically fit ( whether or not it will help my climbjng) and am okay with sacrificing climbing firness to get out for long bike rides and trail runs.

That said, I have a plan for where I want to go based on my goals and mainly am interesting in hearing from previous posters who offers to share their own training largely because I'm a geek who likes to read training spreadsheets! Thanks for the replies.

Cheers
Mike

Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

Good points both mikecease and nick

Side note: nick I think we loosely knew one another once upon a time in/around Boone?? Feel like we might've met in the TUolumne meadows parking lot back in 2009 or so??

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
Mike Flanagan wrote:Side note: nick I think we loosely knew one another once upon a time in/around Boone?? Feel like we might've met in the TUolumne meadows parking lot back in 2009 or so??
Certainly possible! I graduated from App State in '08 and worked up in the Meadows that and the next couple summers, with PLENTY of time spent in the TM store parking lot.

Did you go to school in Boone?
Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

Yep, started in 2007.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

You can't train to be a top athlete in both disciplines at the same time. Hell, they even oppose sometimes- RP advises dropping weight in your legs, while half of NA is built on strong legs.

BUT, you can do a little of one while you focus on the other. For example, simple grip strength is a very long-term project (slow-gaining), and the caloric & recovery requirements are small, so I'm doing moderate hangboarding & forearm work while I focus on NA-type goals. Thus when I switch my focus back to rock, I'll have already invested many months or even years into grip.

Simple grip strength is of course only one little piece of the rock picture. However I've hit hard grip walls several times, both in rock climbing & deadlifts, where my grip wasn't progressing as fast as the rest of me. So this time I'm trying to get a head-start.

Mike F · · Arden, NC · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 56

Nice Patrick. At this point I've moved almost exclusively to rock climbing training and am just doing maintenance aerobic activity at a mich lower volume than before.

max hux · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 75

Bump for the sake of it,

Shortly after reading some responses on this thread I went out and got Steve House's book, instead of reading the first chapter free on Google! Fantastic resource by the way. An update since I'm actually training now....

I started my base phase this week, and I also started the rock prodigy method this week- its a lot of training hours so far but pretty reasonable overall.

I'm planning to fit two RP cycles in between now and April next year (one is a bit condensed). At the second peak I hope to get in some sport/trad redpoints and see how the training paid off!
Meanwhile, I'll be doing the Base and Specific portions of the TFNA program, aiming to use the RP peak as specific climbing for the TFNA before tapering off (sort of a forced taper due to travel) and hopefully peaking in mid May for Cascades goals (volcano routes/skiing and alpine rock both, as silly as it may be).

It doesn't seem outrageous to combine the two- obviously something has to give, but the 'technical alpine program' (as opposed to the mountaineering program) in TFNA seems to fit in a lot of climbing work similar to what we're talking about here. Can't hurt to at least have a good aerobic base while climbing harder! I know I have plenty of room for improvement so it shouldn't be too hard to see some progress!

I'd love to hear some updates from those of you who used the combo to great effect this summer/fall...or even from those of you who tried it and it didn't work for you. Cheers!

Brandon MacMullin · · Calgary, Alberta · Joined May 2016 · Points: 0

Yeah Steve House/ New Alpinism is about becoming a better athlete and is not compatible with improving your grade climbing. The book assumes you already climb at the grades you want and pushing your climbing grade takes a back seat to the aerobic/ strength training. It even goes on to say if you want to up your grade to check out the books by Eric Horst.

Trust me if you are following the New Alpinism program, trying to do more than climb 2 grades below your max grade as the book states, will wreak you for days. Over training is real.

I've been working with the program for two years now and when I started like a dumb newbie I wasn't paying much attention to the volumes, I had to take a week or two off in some instances just to shake the fatigue.

beytzim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 30

Just an update for this thread:

I've been using the RCTM conjugate method (as stated above) while keeping my cardio in maintenance mode throughout the year. Then, prior to a big alpine climb - which for me is once a year - I shift my training to House's methods for 10 weeks prior to climb. This is my second year doing so and its working out well.

Cheers

Paul R · · Santa Cruz, CA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 5
beytzim wrote:Just an update for this thread: I've been using the RCTM conjugate method (as stated above) while keeping my cardio in maintenance mode throughout the year. Then, prior to a big alpine climb - which for me is once a year - I shift my training to House's methods for 10 weeks prior to climb. This is my second year doing so and its working out well. Cheers
Hey beytzim, thanks for the update! Would you be able to tell us what your climbing levels were like before you started this and now? And which alpine climb(s) have you done with this program? I like the way your program is structured and am considering doing something similar.
beytzim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 30

A few caveats: I'm 42 with three small kids and a job that takes me from home most of the week. That being said, I climbed low 5.10 (v2/3) two years ago and am hitting 5.11s (v4/5) now and projecting a 5.12.

My strength has stayed the same (deadlifting about 375 for example) despite only lifting once or twice a week.

Alpine routes using this method included Liberty Ridge, Mt Baker's North Ridge, and Peak 11300.

Cheers

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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