Maximum weight differential between belayer and climber on lead?

Old lady H wrote: Okay, the noob will take a shot. That'll get a response! : ) My inclination is not to worry about added friction, but if it were my very dinky self under your fabulous flesh..

Climbing friend Old lady,

I can tell you must be attract to me because my excellent neck and back meat, as well as sculpted guns. Thank you for this most enjoyable ego boost.

I believe you are correct as you must not stand away from the wall during trad climb. And it is most recommended to stand a bit to the side for first couple clips. But say you belay in a climbing gym for sport, would you stand directly under the first bolt being so tiny? Or do you find standing back say 40 degrees - not so much to be causing you to be falling forward when pulled - would help slow you down when your large friend hucks their meat from the climbing rocks?

Climbing friend Joel,

Your idea sounds most strange, but perhaps is warranting some investigation.

but if its trad just make an upward anchor for the belayer?

FrankPS wrote: I don't think you can help yourself.

I threw out a reply to a question. Just curious, Frank, looking at your page, why don't you give a real contribution? Looks like you could have a lot to offer, if you wanted, based on your experience. And that dog saves your bacon, anyway, in my book. No flames aimed your direction from me! Sincerely hope he/she is still with you. What a sweety!

Aleks, I don't have a lead belay certification in my gym yet, but, as I said, as soon as I do, I will be finding out those limits.

Standing out from the wall still seems like the wrong idea, though. Frank? Somebody?

Old lady H wrote: I threw out a reply to a question. Just curious, Frank, looking at your page, why don't you give a real contribution? Looks like you could have a lot to offer, if you wanted, based on your experience. And that dog saves your bacon, anyway, in my book. No flames aimed your direction from me! Sincerely hope he/she is still with you. What a sweety! Aleks, I don't have a lead belay certification in my gym yet, but, as I said, as soon as I do, I will be finding out those limits. Standing out from the wall still seems like the wrong idea, though. Frank? Somebody?

You appear to be laboring under the misconception that Aleks and Frank provide serious answers.

Marc801 wrote: You appear to be laboring under the misconception that Aleks and Frank provide serious answers.

It varies, depending on the topic. This one has been beat to death (even though I asked a sincere question at the beginning of this thread).

There's a time for sincerity and there's a time for levity or sarcasm. Now if I could only figure out when one is appropriate over the other...

My dogs are still alive and kicking, Old Lady H. Thanks for asking.

I will bite against my better judgment. Belayer standing significantly back from the start of the route will generate outward and maybe even upward pull on the first piece if the leader falls with only the first 1 or 2 pieces placed. This is more of a consideration when placed pieces are "directional" in nature (eg nut in a downward constricting crack). After more pieces are in, the first piece becomes less of an issue and standing slightly back to prevent over craning of the belayer's neck is generally not a bad idea.
That said, if you are lead belaying someone weighing significantly more, standing far back at any time is not be a good idea. I say this from personal experience because I got yanked into a rock, hip first, at the Glory Hole crag in WV when the big guy I was belaying took a whip with about 60 feet of rope out.
I know we can't always have our choice of climbing partners but, trust me, everything is easier (and safer I would argue) when climber/belayer are within 25# of each other in weight. I wised up after a number of painful slams during my early years. I have gotten more selective who I lead belay.

FrankPS wrote: It varies, depending on the topic. This one has been beat to death (even though I asked a sincere question at the beginning of this thread). There's a time for sincerity and there's a time for levity or sarcasm. Now if I could only figure out when one is appropriate over the other... My dogs are still alive and kicking, Old Lady H. Thanks for asking.

+++++++!!!! Thanks, Frank!

Did your question ever get answered? And yes, you're right about this thread, plus there are 4 or 5 other light belayer threads, equally long. Aleks asked twice, though, so I think there was an actual question there. Thanks so much for the photos though. Seriously sucked week at work, and your roomies just improved it a bunch. See, I knew you were a nice guy, or at least that's the rumor I'm planning on spreading.

Old lady H wrote: +++++++!!!! Thanks, Frank! Did your question ever get answered?

No, my question about, uh, his question did not get answered. The OP has not come back to this thread since he started it in September (I think).

I'll tell Champ and Missy you approve of them!

FrankPS wrote: No, my question about, uh, his question did not get answered. The OP has not come back to this thread since he started it in September (I think). I'll tell Champ and Missy you approve of them!

That's because they wear climbing shoes. OPs need track shoes if they want to catch up with these threads. And admit it, Frank, you don't even remember what your question about his question was, which probably had no discernable relevance to the title of the thread, nor even belonged in that particular forum, and certainly should never, ever have...done..something or other.. shoot, forgot my point. Rub some ears for me. : )

Old lady H wrote: That's because they wear climbing shoes. OPs need track shoes if they want to catch up with these threads. And admit it, Frank, you don't even remember what your question about his question was, which probably had no discernable relevance to the title of the thread, nor even belonged in that particular forum, and certainly should never, ever have...done..something or other.. shoot, forgot my point. Rub some ears for me. : )

I remember exactly what my question was and it was asking for clarification of his question. It's not that hard to keep up with these threads, if you want. It's called "reading."

FrankPS wrote:Is the OP's question about soft catches, or is he concerned about the belayer losing control of the rope due to the weight mismatch? He wasn't really specific about why he wanted to know the max weight difference.

Sorry to be so late getting back to this. The original worry was if my 110 pound mother could belay me without getting pulled to the first bolt. I'm 155. It was basically me looking for an objective answer to my subjective question...I ended up just trying it, so I got my answer. Your dogs are awsome.
Happy climbing

Awh Missy is beautiful!

Awh Missy is beautiful!

Edit: dam double post -_-

eli poss wrote:Climbing friend, It depends on how far up on the climbing rocks when you huck your meat off. If you are low on the climbing rock, you might leave the first bolt clipped so your belayer doesn't get pulled up higher while you drop to the ground. Higher up, you might unclip the first bolt. It shouldn't matter, though, if you only do the bold satisfying flash, because you don't huck off your meat.

The first bolt should not be used to restrict upward moment of the belayer. If you want to keep the belayer close to the deck, anchor him down. If your belayer is like most climbers and chooses to use a GriGri and the GriGri slams into the first draw as the belayer gets yanked upward, there is a solid chance the carabiner on the draw will force open the cam on the GriGri and your fall will be much longer than you expected. Petzl actually warns of this exact scenario in the user manual for the GriGri (edit: in the manual for the GriGri 1). This is also why it's important for the belayer to unclip the belay station draw on a multipitch route after the leader has the first piece in.

20 kN wrote: If your belayer is like most climbers and chooses to use a GriGri and the GriGri slams into the first draw as the belayer gets yanked upward, there is a solid chance the carabiner on the draw will force open the cam on the GriGri and your fall will be much longer than you expected. Petzl actually warns of this exact scenario in the user manual for the GriGri (edit: in the manual for the GriGri 1).

I have seen this exact thing happen in the gym, not once, but twice. The first time it happened, the belayer was up at the first bolt, the fallen leader was below her, a whole foot above the mat. Dramatic.

S. Neoh wrote: I have seen this exact thing happen in the gym, not once, but twice. The first time it happened, the belayer was up at the first bolt, the fallen leader was below her, a whole foot above the mat. Dramatic.

Always wondered what happens when that happens. Given the number of grigris around, and it being one of the most frequently talked about belay devices, I'm sort of surprised that I can't recall anyone bringing up that point before.

20 kN wrote: The first bolt should not be used to restrict upward moment of the belayer. If you want to keep the belayer close to the deck, anchor him down. If your belayer is like most climbers and chooses to use a GriGri and the GriGri slams into the first draw as the belayer gets yanked upward, there is a solid chance the carabiner on the draw will force open the cam on the GriGri and your fall will be much longer than you expected. Petzl actually warns of this exact scenario in the user manual for the GriGri (edit: in the manual for the GriGri 1). This is also why it's important for the belayer to unclip the belay station draw on a multipitch route after the leader has the first piece in.

I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem you are trying to solve here. You say the belayer should be anchored down to prevent the belay device from hitting the first bolt. Then you say on multipitch it's important for the belayer to unclip the belay station draw on a multipitch route after the leader has the first piece in. ???
1. On a multipitch route, the belayer should already be anchored in.
2. If your grigri still causes a problem even when you are anchored in, just use a different belay device. Don't undermine your leader's protection system by unclipping one of their only two points of protection.

I hope I'm misunderstanding you, and I think I must be because this is one of the weirder pieces of advice I've seen lately. But for fuck's sake, if I clipped the anchor to prevent a factor 2 fall onto the anchor, which may prevent a fall that could endanger both climber and belayer, and then after clipping one single additional piece of gear, I looked down and saw my belayer unclipping my rope from the anchor.....

I would probably downclimb, tie-in, and punch them in the face.

Em Cos wrote: Then you say on multipitch it's important for the belayer to unclip the belay station draw on a multipitch route after the leader has the first piece in. ??? 1. On a multipitch route, the belayer should already be anchored in.

If you are anchored into the same point as the first piece, how would that prevent the grigri from slamming into the said piece when you get pulled up?

Em Cos wrote:and then after clipping one single additional piece of gear, I looked down and saw my belayer unclipping my rope from the anchor.....

What exactly would the anchor piece do when you are high above it? It only prevents a factor 2 before you get the first piece in (which you damn should make sure is solid).

Em Cos wrote:I would probably downclimb, tie-in, and punch them in the face.

Thanks for reminding the rest of us to never climb with you...

Em Cos wrote: I would probably downclimb, tie-in, and punch them in the face.

reboot wrote: Thanks for reminding the rest of us to never climb with you.

I'm really trying to cut back on mid-climb fist fights too. But isn't the first rule of Don't Fight Club not to talk about ...

I cannot think of anything good coming out of hitting one's belayer while on a multi-pitch climb! As a wise partner told me a long time ago - "a happy belayer is a safer belayer". Clipping a draw into the belay anchor seems to be the thing to do these days to avoid a FF2 right above the anchor. That said, there is a reason why the first 'real' piece above the belay anchor is commonly called the "Jesus Nut". The religious reference is most unfortunate and non PC but it does convey the importance of this real piece above the belay anchor. When I first started leading, we did not clip the lead rope to the anchor (often non bolted) with a draw. We would often spend way too much time putting in a Jesus Nut or two a short distance above the belay anchor before truly casting off into the next pitch. The rationale was integrity of the belay anchor is paramount and the leader and belayer should never do anything to compromise that. Sort of like "the leader must not fall" mentality that preceded my formative years by two decades, give or take.
Lengthening the tie-in point for the belayer or anchoring the belayer will lessen the chance the belayer be yanked up two feet or more.