Trad belay vs. Sport belay, single pitch

FrankPS wrote:Old Lady H, Have you ever considered hiring a guide for a couple of days? (private, not a class) You can learn a lot and get answers without all the conflicting info on the Internet.

RYAN, too, and others elsewhere: I've thought about giving a guide some money, but the nearest are about 3, 4, and 5 hours away. I was thinking I would contact some folks, anyway, explain who I am (so they have realistic expectations), and then maybe they will keep me in mind if they have something come up that puts them in my neighborhood.

Oh. I also am pretty low income, and my primary transportation (by choice, so I have to be active) is by bicycle. IMO, bike commuting is much more dangerous than climbing!

MP community, I just quickly glanced through this thread. I hope you will enjoy hearing our friend John Strand again, as I did.

"You don't know what you've got til it's gone"

H. So sorry I never met you.

This isn't specific to belaying but it is relevant to being the partner in a trad climbing team. Checking each other before heading up the climb becomes even more important. I really appreciate it, for example, if my partner looks at my rack and says, "hey, did you mean to not bring any nuts?" Always better to have someone else catch your brain farts before they turn into problems.

He is gone but you can come to the Northeast and sample some of his routes........

AndrewArroz wrote:

This is specific to belaying but it is relevant to being the partner in a trad climbing team. Checking each other before heading up the climb becomes even more important. I really appreciate it, for example, if my partner looks at my rack and says, "hey, did you mean to not bring any nuts?" Always better to have someone else catch your brain farts before they turn into problems.

It's a very close easy approach, fortunately, but we forgot the rope at the car one day. Oops!

Best, H.

beensandbagged wrote:

He is gone but you can come to the Northeast and sample some of his routes........

Yes, that would be lovely. I might be climbing with a Gunkie next week. Super looking forward to that! Meeting someone from here has always been great, for me, anyway. 

I still miss John, though, and wish I had met him.

Lots of folks I'd like to meet on here, actually, but, well, adulthood just sucks, eh? 

Helen

Excellent thread with a lot to learn from, I’m glad this one is still on here from years ago.

john strand wrote: GEEZs I knew it was coming..helmets, helmets and more helmets. A helmet doesn't make you safe, paying attention does

How can anyone honestly argue against helmets anymore? If you don’t want to wear one cool, it’s still a free country, but helmets do make you unequivocally safer while climbing. Not “safe” (we all know climbing invokes risk), but safer.

Oregon has enough choss that I always wear mine when belaying, as well as for new leaders who accidentally drop a piece of pro.... a #11 offset from 30m up will definitely mess up your day. 

Only thing I would add is that, unlike sport climbing where safety is *somewhat* more expected as long as you don’t fuck up, with trad climbing, ground falls are a real possibility.  Knowing what to do if a climber falls in the no-fall zone (or a piece rips) could keep someone out of the hospital/morgue.  Same goes for ledges, etc...knowing when to give a soft catch vs yard down hard or even run away from the cliff.

Edit: oh, this is a 4 year old thread.  Oh well.

john strand wrote: What? Guy, why do you think escaping a belay is useless skill to have? I would agree that most climbers will never have to go through this process but isn't it good for climber to be self reliant in shitty situations? What would you do if your climber got hurt and became unconscious more than the half way point of the rope? I agree with Guy 100% escape the belay..how you gonna descend w/o a rope ?..You gonna leave an unconscious person hanging ? The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in 35+ yrs of climbing..the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

Why can't you prusik up a free hanging rope? Just use two prusiks. Weight the bottom one, slide the top one up. Gain upward progress, bringing the bottom one up with you. Repeat. 

S. Neoh wrote: I am glad no one has mentioned that belayer needs to be anchored down. Truth of the matter is I do not want to lead belay anyone who is +40# on me nor do I want anyone weighing less than 95# lead belay me. Helmet or not, anchored down means you are likely further away from the wall and not nimble to react correctly and quickly to a fall or a chunk of rock headed for your noggin.

Do not agree. Two climbers died recently in my home state. Belayer belaying on a ledge a fair way up. First pitch. Fiddly gear at start of climb. Leader fell, gear popped, both fell to their death. If belayer was anchored at least he would still be alive, possibly both. There are times a belayer MUST be anchored. 

S. Neoh wrote: I am glad no one has mentioned that belayer needs to be anchored down. Truth of the matter is I do not want to lead belay anyone who is +40# on me nor do I want anyone weighing less than 95# lead belay me. Helmet or not, anchored down means you are likely further away from the wall and not nimble to react correctly and quickly to a fall or a chunk of rock headed for your noggin.

Carl Schneider wrote: Do not agree. Two climbers died recently in my home state. Belayer belaying on a ledge a fair way up. First pitch. Fiddly gear at start of climb. Leader fell, gear popped, both fell to their death. If belayer was anchored at least he would still be alive, possibly both. There are times a belayer MUST be anchored. 

I think he was talking about a ground anchor, ie when the belayer is on the ground, and not up on the wall somewhere.

IMO, one should balance the risks and benefits of a ground anchor and use when you and your partner decide its for the best. Never using one, as well as always using one may not be the best approach.

Regarding the OP (from years ago)--

#1 - for single pitch trad, remember to close the system and decide ahead of time whether the leader will be lowered, or go off belay to bring the second up (or rappel).
#2 - get them walkie-talkies, it makes it easier to helicopter-mom them ;)

Cesar Cardenas wrote:

i mean... I wear a helmet sometimes and sometimes I don't. Climbing at a choss pile--helmet. Climbing at the popular sport area--no helmet; etc. To take away a tool completely would be idiotic. Are you an idiot, sir? 

Check the date. John Strand was a climbing legend who passed away 2 years ago

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112788658/rip-john-strand

Cesar Cardenas wrote:

Dang, now I'll never know the answer to my question.

Thanks for sharing the information Bryce.

If he died from a head injury I think you would have a pretty clear answer!

If you haven’t already seen this : ​Should you change the way you belay?​​​

Malcolm Daly wrote: If you haven’t already seen this : Should you change the way you belay?

Wow, so odd to see this thread again.

Oh yes, I've seen that, and heaps more. I do wish they showed what they were doing a little more in the very last setup. Was the bight in the ropes him anchoring in?

Lots has changed in the intervening years, and I am at least a beginner with enough knowledge and experience to know I have limitations, lol!

Thanks, all. I'm kinda a team project, and all of you have been truly awesome in your kindness to me. Posting a follow-up thread to this: ice! :-)

Best, Helen

OLH-more info: ​Direct Balay​​​

Theres a lot of useful knowledge that needs to resurface in this thread

I dedicated an entire chapter to belaying in my book, Advanced Rock Climbing. Several of the superstars I interviewed for the book commented on the importance of taking belaying seriously and paying attention to the situational differences including:
"If you use advanced belay techniques, you can make really dangerous things a lot safer." - Alex Honnold
"There's a lot of communication that's said without words in belaying - watching the body language of the leader, seeing what gear the leader places and noticing the consequences of a fall." - Sonnie Trotter
And I'll add 2 of my own -
1 - Learn to use the rope and situation for signals rather than verbal signals. With the popularity of climbing, when you hear someone yell "Off Belay!" don't assume you should take the leader off belay. This is possibly the most common serious mistake in modern climbing. Far better to just leave them on belay until it is visually obvious that they are off belay (rope moving faster than a person can climb, or the rope runs out and the only option is to start climbing).
2- Belaying with a grigri or similar assisted-lock device when the belayer is larger than the climber creates hard falls and can pull gear more easily unless the belayer is very aware and moves quickly with the force of the fall. Thus, I usually prefer a tube device for trad climbing unless the gear is beyond bomber and/or the belayer is smaller than I am.
Belaying is like driving. It's easy. But really hard to do well 10,000 times in a row.

...and the ACMG's fixed-point belay video at https://vimeo.com/44869774 .