Trad belay vs. Sport belay, single pitch

eli poss wrote: There's no need to escape the belay, unless the pitch is longer than half your rope length. If it is, tie off the belay device and climb up until your partner reaches the ground. What happens next is highly situational, depending on your or your partner's ability, or lack thereof, to down climb.

Exactly. hence in the context of the OP's subject matter (single pitch), the discussion of escaping belays is superfluous. To the OP, here's a tip not yet given here (or at least I do not believe so) - if you think the route is going to be more than one-half the rope length, you as the belayer, should tie into the other end of the rope even before the leader leaves the ground. I have done this numerous times; when linking pitches at The Gunks (trad) and at Rumney (sport).

S. Neoh wrote: Exactly. hence in the context of the OP's subject matter (single pitch), the discussion of escaping belays is superfluous.

Old lady H wrote:Just talking single pitch for now, although multi is coming soon

That's why. Also because the MMO is really good to know if the pitch happens to be more than half the rope length. And this does happen, as the standard rope length changes. You'd be screwed in some places with a 60m rope and fine in others with a 50m. If the OP went to a new crag in a different area, there is the possibility that their rope may not be long enough.

john strand wrote:Well your kinda fucked, what your thought process? you gonna solo up or down for help? doubtfull,,your gonna "ascend the rope to help the leader ? probably not I have never, not once, untied from the lead rope in any situation,never.

Hey, John, hop back on or send me a message. I don't disagree, exactly, but more info would be great.

A rope with a leader on the other end wouldn't exactly be free hanging, and i can see that ascending might be a problem, in many ways. Tying off the belay and climbing, as Eli said, seems good, but only if the leader is hanging free enough to come down when you go up. Two bodies on the same gear? Hmmm...

On the ground, I'm confident I have the smarts and bits of stuff to work it out, but somewhere up a multi? No one around? That's why I "waste" time here, at the gym with some prussiks, and with my nose in a whole lot of books.

And no, I don't actually worry about it, but I know that stuff is rattling around in there somewhere, and I should be able to extrapolate something from what I can dredge up.

eli poss wrote: If the OP went to a new crag in a different area, there is the possibility that their rope may not be long enough.

Knowing a new area's "requirements" ahead of time should be part of due diligence for all visiting climbers. This includes rope, required pros, rock type, approach times, temps, etc.
To the OP, there are many threads already on mp.com on the "best" 1st rope and 2nd rope for a new leader. I won't add to the noise and dissonance. My ropes for the past few years and maybe for the next two are 70m, 9.7/9.8/9.9 mm, between 60 and 62 g/m. Good sheath but not overly stiff. Many places in the US now assume 70m rope if you get on new sport routes. In Europe, it is 80m.

john strand wrote: I agree with Guy 100% escape the belay..how you gonna descend w/o a rope ?..You gonna leave an unconscious person hanging ? The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in 35+ yrs of climbing..the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

Escaping a belay is a basic self-rescue skill, and is often (not always) Step 1 in a self-rescue situation. If you have no clue what you would do next after escaping the belay, you can either start learning, or stick to single-pitch crags that are well-populated and/or have great cell service.
If you're interested in learning more about self-rescue, there are some excellent books that would be a great place to start. If you're not interested in learning, at least you don't need to belittle someone else who is passionate about learning and responsible enough to want to be of use if her partner ever needs rescue.

I'm astounded that you've climbed for 35 years and think prussiking is some unheard of impossible trick. It's a very simple skill, and one I learned before my first multi-pitch climb, and used many times (as a follower falling off overhanging climbs in the gunks and hanging in space) before I ever led my first climb, when I was a beginner. I don't think I've ever had a trad partner that didn't know how to ascend a rope with prussiks, and when I'm teaching new climbers it's part of following trad 101. And not one of them has ever struggled to grasp the technique.

Old Lady H..... I went back over you first post. You ask good questions, but I will still tell you you don't need anything STATIC in your kit. I climb with a partner who I out weigh by 60 pounds.... he lugs around a long runner to tie to the ground when needed.

Your Q is specific to "trad single pitch" what I simply call "climbing...." most all of that (belaying) is exactly the same as sport climbing, except one needs to be aware of how the first protection pieces will respond in case the leader falls. eg: will the rope becoming tight- lift a stopper up and out or will a cam rotate and loose position?

One time I was resting during some repeated tries on a climb at Josh. On one of the climbs over to the left, a 5.10 with a big move at about 20 feet and the pro is at your feet when you do the move..... anyway I was sitting there watching these dudes. The leader gets the wired stopper in, hangs a 18 inch long runner on it- to reduce rope drag- PER THE BOOK- and then he comes down to rest on the ground. So I - very politely - mention that he will DECK if he falls- and point out that I only clip the wired nut with a single locking biner when I do that climb and his belayer needs to stand right under him and be ready to sit down if he falls..... To make a long story short, I was rebuffed, the dude fell and grounded, breaking his leg - a text book compound fracture with blood and all of that... sort of ruined everybody's day.

Keep up the climbing.... soon you will realize that in climbing one pitch leads to another and another and another......

To John Strand..... thanks for pointing out the stupidity of the whole "escape the belay" deal tossed around by beginner climbers. You sound like someone I should go climbing with.

""eli poss
6 hours ago

Don't listen to that idiot about escaping the belay; it's a very useful skill to have

And to Eli.... you get close to rule #1... I ask you this. Explain what you would do if lets say on pitch 3 of the Vampire.... your leader was more than 1/2 way out and unconscious?????????????? I would really like to know. I have been in that situation more than once.... I know how I got everyone down and it didn't involve escaping any belay.

Guy Keesee wrote: I ask you this. Explain what you would do if lets say on pitch 3 of the Vampire.... your leader was more than 1/2 way out and unconscious?????????????? I would really like to know. I have been in that situation more than once.... I know how I got everyone down and it didn't involve escaping any belay.

What did you do? I am not asking like a smart ass, I honestly want to know.
Escaping the belay seem to be an important step in some techniques, but obviously no the way you do things. John said you be fucked and left it as that. How do you handle this?

Wait, isn't pitch 3 of the vamp less than 30 m?

Alllrrright, guys, sheesh! NOOB is going to take a crack at thinking this through.
Scenario: Somewhere up a multi pitch, more than half of rope out, leader unconscious, NOT hanging from the rope (on a ledge, stuffed in a chimney, whatever). No phone service, no one around, 5 hour hike out.

So, I'm now seriously stuck also. Goal number one is to get enough rope to get down. I doubt there's any way I can get my climber down myself, I know my limitations.

First, tie off the belay and have myself tied off/anchored so I can think and work. Then do whatever I need to do to be able to leave the belay anchor, and carry the plan through.

Then, I have to go up, safely. The next thing I think I would do is anchor the other end of the rope, and make sure I can later pull up the slack from the top, if I want more rope.

Climbing? Ascending? Well, how much do I trust the poor guy at the top to "hold" the rope? Or the last piece of gear, if he comes off? Ahhh, now I know I want the rope tight on the bottom. Which means escape the belay, but get myself tied on to that rope. Two friction hitches, at least, and start on up, climbing, if possible, and ascending if needed. Still have gear to go around, too. Not a bad idea to throw on more, if I can, after I am past it.

And, have to figure out what to do at top. Maybe anchor lead dude in with that useless static rope I carry on my harness, so I can start trying to get back down?

Mmmm, so how can I come down? Make the top piece totally bomber, tie in to the lead end of the rope, and... Can't. Can't self belay without slack.

Shit.

Okay, I'm stuck. I admit it. Bet I'd figure it out eventually, though.

No freaking fun what so ever, AND please don't forget that meat anchor at the top is likely someone I care about. And I will still need to get the job done.

So please do not give me any crap at all about learning as much as I can. Please all of you stay safe, too!

Guy Keesee wrote:you don't need anything STATIC in your kit. I climb with a partner who I out weigh by 60 pounds.... he lugs around a long runner to tie to the ground when needed.

So... you're talking about a dynamic long runner?

S. Neoh wrote: Knowing a new area's "requirements" ahead of time should be part of due diligence for all visiting climbers. This includes rope, required pros, rock type, approach times, temps, etc. To the OP, there are many threads already on mp.com on the "best" 1st rope and 2nd rope for a new leader. I won't add to the noise and dissonance. My ropes for the past few years and maybe for the next two are 70m, 9.7/9.8/9.9 mm, between 60 and 62 g/m. Good sheath but not overly stiff. Many places in the US now assume 70m rope if you get on new sport routes. In Europe, it is 80m.

Um, I don't disagree, but have to mention that I've already climbed where the beta is "think you can lead that?" "Yeah. Think you wanna climb it if I set it up for ya?" "Sure!"

Hells Canyon, Idaho. Can't tell you the route names, lots of sport routes in limestone, some really long, some quite short, not much else!

Most likely you are not (especially while doing single pitch) going to run into a place where you will be past 50% of the rope. However I do know areas where single pitch may be longer than what a 60m rope will reach.

In those cases you do need to have some basic understanding of stuff you can do to fix the situations. I have had to climb up a wall while belaying someone to get them to the ground (after cleaning the route the rope barely reached the ground with a 60) but due to the way the route went and traversed at the top it was close.

If your leader was to get knocked unconscious you need to know how to escape a belay and help them. You can die from hanging from a rope for to long so it doesn't hurt to have at least a general idea of what you can try to do to save your partner's life. Yes it is rare that this would happen but even with phone signal you can die before any rescue will get to you.

Is this a critical skill to know? To be honest probably not most people will climb their entire life and never need to know it. But if you happen to be one of the rare people who get in the situation it could save a life.

It never hurts to at least be familiar with some basics in rope soloing / ascending lines even if you never plan on using them so if you have to use it you have some way to figure it out on your own.

ViperScale wrote:Most likely you are not (especially while doing single pitch) going to run into a place where you will be past 50% of the rope. However I do know areas where single pitch may be longer than what a 60m rope will reach. In those cases you do need to have some basic understanding of stuff you can do to fix the situations. I have had to climb up a wall while belaying someone to get them to the ground (after cleaning the route the rope barely reached the ground with a 60) but due to the way the route went and traversed at the top it was close. If your leader was to get knocked unconscious you need to know how to escape a belay and help them. You can die from hanging from a rope for to long so it doesn't hurt to have at least a general idea of what you can try to do to save your partner's life. Yes it is rare that this would happen but even with phone signal you can die before any rescue will get to you. Is this a critical skill to know? To be honest probably not most people will climb their entire life and never need to know it. But if you happen to be one of the rare people who get in the situation it could save a life. It never hurts to at least be familiar with some basics in rope soloing / ascending lines even if you never plan on using them so if you have to use it you have some way to figure it out on your own.

To me, it's just another bit of the mental puzzle, and an enjoyable one. I don't expect to be able to rescue anyone, honestly, but I would hope to at least be able to think it through and maybe get myself out of the jam, or at least not make it worse. Even knowing just one friction hitch, and seeing that it will hold your weight, easily, is an "aha!" moment for people who seen me do with the Purcell's at the gym. Ropes, knots and a few carabiners truly can do amazing (and fun) things!

And, pretty sure we've got some really long routes here (Idaho), City of Rocks, Hells Canyon, but, see... Idaho! So many up and down bits most don't even have names! : )

Guy Keesee wrote:Explain what you would do if lets say on pitch 3 of the Vampire.... your leader was more than 1/2 way out and unconscious?

I don't know what this climbs is like so situational detail might change the process. I'll take a shot at it anyways:

0.5 Pray to the God I don't believe in
1 Escape the belay
2 Ascend to the leader, apply first aid, beef up the top piece to make an anchor
3 Assess the situation and, if needed, call 911
4 Down-prusik down to lower anchor and release rope, reascend to victum
5 construct a rescue spider of sorts and tandem rap with victum until i'm at the ground

There's a lot of conjecture and theory in this thread mixed in with anecdotal retellings of unfortunate events and all of it shaded a bit by overthinking and natural anxiety.

In general, people crossing over to trad mainly need an experienced partner / mentor as opposed to a list or litany of should / must do's from the internet to try on your own. With a declining percentage of the demographic trad climbing, I get that's not always possible, but finding such a mentor should be a real strong first priority and then falling back to guides / self-teaching only if you can't make that happen for some reason.

Taking the latter approach it's easy to get overwhelmed and anxious, particularly on being bombarded with internet advice and reading accident reports. But here's the deal, it's a odd balance; on one hand it should be fun and not burdened by over-thinking or being over-wrought, but on the other you have to have some basic competency bases covered. Striking that balance isn't always easy and you have to guard against both being under- and over-confident. It's can be hard to strike that balance and it's not something that can be 'advised', hence the reason for mentors.

And much of the self-rescue discussion here is a bit premature in this circumstance and it's not really a beginning topic. Better instead is to do beginning trad leads where there are some folks about and there is cell coverage so if you do get in a jam you can yell for some nearby help or call for a rescue as opposed to further complicating matters attempting to do a self-rescue as a beginning trad climber. I'd make exceptions to that if you've been climbing for a while at a reasonable level of sport and are comfortable and experienced leading in that venue.

I also wouldn't worry overly about things like soft/hard catches on beginning trad leads - if there's a fall just lock that puppy up. If the communication is such that you can take in some slack just prior to the fall so much the better, but that sort of belaying nuance can wait for later.

As far as a leader being out-of-sight, here's what I recommend. When you are belaying climbers you can see (as in most all of the time, sport or trad), keep just a hair's breath of tension on the rope with fingers of the hand on the leader side of the belay device (by 'hair's breath' I mean they shouldn't really be able to tell you're even doing it) - i.e. just enough tension so you can always feel/detect the leader's movements through the rope.

Are they moving? Resting? Stepping back down? Downclimbing? Or stopping to clip or place gear? Every climber has patterns and rhythms of behavior on lead you can learn via the rope if you climb with them enough. And eventually you can tell what most leaders are doing via the rope unless they are being erratic either by nature, circumstance or due to some peculiar aspect of the climb. But really being much more cognizant of leaders movements via the rope while you can see them will allow you to be far less anxious when they are out of sight. Do it long enough and you'll get to where you generally have a pretty good bead on a leader's state of mind just by what you feel through the rope as they climb.

My two cents anyway...

Healyje wrote: My two cents anyway...

Thanks, so much! I figure I've actually got more than a few C notes worth here, you and the others!

Just back from a great climbing day, even if I was "only" belaying. 2 sport leads, well within my climber's abilities, but both were giving him fits. Got to deliver very, very active belays, 6" to 6' of rope back and forth, very quickly, over and over, without even any falls of much significance, just a climber having to work a lot harder than he anticipated. I super enjoy this, using everything and making my end of it as unnoticeable as possible!

To be clear about myself: although I am diligent about safety, once that's done, I don't worry at all. Once I'm off the ground, the odds of a mishap are 100% or 0, and you only know that after the fact. When I'm climbing, it's exactly one move at a time.

Belaying, it's the opposite, starting before the ATC is even loaded. Where should I stand, what are the angles, where will the rope get stuck, etc. Watch everything, almost all the time (know when you can scratch your nose), anticipate everything, deliver exactly what the climber will need just when he's about to want it, and be ready for anything, with both of us being safe, having fun, and all that being the goal. And do this while on top of a 3' diameter column. Makes me sooo happy!

I happen to be a nonlinear, creative thinker. When my brain is off leash, sometimes you won't be able to chase it down with a GPS, let alone get me back on track, so the threads here are generally great fun for me. Being old, I also have the life skill of just not worrying a whole lot about much of anything. Perspective is one of the few advantages to ancientness.

Mentorwise, alas... That is difficult. I greatly enjoy climbing, and people have been very kind, helpful, etc. But, still, I have real limitations to my abilities. So. The list of what I don't have is long, so. So, you ignore it, flail away as hard as you can, and be as alive as you can possibly be, until you aren't.

john strand wrote:...the only thing even close is "prussik the free hanging rope" ever done that ? I bet not, you know why ? because you can't..especially a beginner

100% incorrect. It can be done, and reasonably easily, even by beginners after appropriate instruction and practice. I've had to do it and I've had partners do so as well. There are some routes in the Gunks where if the second comes off they're free hanging, can't get back on the rock, may not be able to be lowered to a ledge, and even if lowered may not be able to safely reascend to the point where they fell since they've now cleaned the gear on the first part of the pitch.

Old Lady H,

Have you ever considered hiring a guide for a couple of days? (private, not a class) You can learn a lot and get answers without all the conflicting info on the Internet.

Reading this thread makes me thankful I was able to learn this from someone experienced IRL.

I suggest OP do the same. If you don't know anyone maybe try a course with a guide or something?

Old lady H wrote: To be clear about myself: although I am diligent about safety, once that's done, I don't worry at all. Once I'm off the ground, the odds of a mishap are 100% or 0, and you only know that after the fact. When I'm climbing, it's exactly one move at a time.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're saying that once you leave the ground, all safety decisions are over and done with and either something will go wrong or it won't, and it's out of your hands.

If that's what you're saying, that's completely wrong. As you climb you will constantly make decisions that affect both your safety and your partners, and being diligent about safety isn't "done" when you leave the ground, it's really just beginning.

Em Cos wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're saying that once you leave the ground, all safety decisions are over and done with and either something will go wrong or it won't, and it's out of your hands. If that's what you're saying, that's completely wrong. As you climb you will constantly make decisions that affect both your safety and your partners, and being diligent about safety isn't "done" when you leave the ground, it's really just beginning.

Of course safety is always there! To clarify, I've never been inclined to "worry" about stuff while climbing, like the rope breaking, my belayer dying, the whole slab I'm climbing falling off, what ever. I also fall aplenty, so I am comfortable doing so. A lot of what your brain wants to tell you to worry about is just stupid, and has to be turned off to concentrate on what you are doing. Climbing, that's all I should be concerned with, the moment at hand. Belaying, many, many more details, all the time. Yes, I will be able to read routes, plan moves ahead, and, maybe, remember what worked where on a climb, eventually, but I'm still move to move now. I will earn no style points from the forum folks! : )

And hey, Em, I really appreciate how you often can jump in on the "hot" threads with something thought out and reasonable. Thanks!