What routes in Eldo would get more traffic with one more bolt?

Been out of the climbing scene for awhile but have a few new projects in mind. Was reading the Stewart Green Climbing in Colorado Book and the Rossiter books and many of the classic climbs in Eldo have an S rating.

Having done 10 or 12 of the major climbs in the canyon including some of the runout 5.6 climbs and being fully aware of the "fun" of placing gear at Eldo I realized that Redguard, Tagger, and Metamorphosis were really not going to get onto my list anytime soon.

Some arguments on both sides...Many of these routes were founded with fixed pins or had fixed pins left from an original aid ascent...and those fixed pins have since fallen out or are too mangy to be of much help. Is adding a bolt where a pin once was a major change to the route that has gotten tougher throughout the years?

Knowing there are plenty of bolts throughout the canyon but very few bolted routes it came to me that five or ten well-placed bolts would increase the traffic on some moderate routes to the point where overcrowding on favorites (and well protected) romps could be avoided. On the other side, of course, the people that climbed a route "before bolting" will always cry foul since they were able to complete the journey on their own.

For more banter about Eldo bolting see the "C'est la Vie" forum section mountainproject.com/v/cest-…

My next step after this thought was to explore this site to see if these "classic" but somewhat dangerous routes had much traffic. I have been in the canyon many times and have yet to see anyone on yellow traverse or metamorphosis or Anthill. This site has less than a handful of photos where calypso has 24. For comparison of popularity: Tagger (15 photos), Wind Ridge (38), Yellow Traverse (1), Metamorphosis (11), Anthill Direct (19), Redguard (9)

So, mainly for the discussion (so don't think that I am headed to the bolt board with this list!!!) what high-quality routes in Eldo would "get more traffic" if there was one or maybe two more bolts? THANKS

None needed on any mentioned. Regarding Yellow Traverse: Diffraction is a better pitch into Metamorphosis and protects fine. Metamorphosis is run out but a safe fall-I've caught a 20 footer with the second bolt as the last piece.

The run out pitch on Anthill is easy climbing and should be well within the leader's capability if they plan on doing the last 5.9 pitch or if you successfully approached via Touch & Go.

IMO Hair City could be thrown in the discussion but that gets tons of traffic despite being more sustained and just as serious as say Anthill, Tagger P1, etc.

My two cents as a lowly 10 Eldo leader.

Time to arouse the nay sayers...Sidewall, Aerospace, Rain, Cest La Vie..but in keeping with tradition, you'll have to forgo those bolts and pucker up!

In the case of C'est la Vie the Action Committee made it very clear that this was not a standard decision in any sense.
There is no 'one-size-fits-all' way of deciding what to do with aging pins and each decision will be unique and guaranteed to be controversial.
Adding bolts just to make an established route more palatable to the risk-averse is definitely not on the table.

I think the beauty of Eldo is that you can escape the masses by getting on routes that are runout.

In doing more research, the runout on the anthill is probably similar to the other runouts on the upper walls. Also, I didn't think about the idea of following most of these routes first because it always seems like I am (or was in the day) the one dragging someone else up them first.

So, another way of asking is: what is your favorite route that you would do more often if there was one more bolt?

Thanks for the history of C'est la vie.

Thanks.

The ACE website, specifically section 3.8 on what goes into approving routes and bolts is actually very interesting.

aceeldo.org/fhrc/ACE_Fixed_…

"These foregoing factors, in combination, may lead to a difficult to define,
‘popular' and, hopefully, well enjoyed route."

David Harrison 1 wrote:The ACE website, specifically section 3.8 on what goes into approving routes and bolts is actually very interesting...

And section 3.8 is explicitly about approval of bolts on new routes.

What you are talking about (fixed hardware on established routes) is dealt with in sections 3.2 to 3.7.

I'm a total wimp when it comes to runouts. I've done many of those "unsafe" climbs on your list, and felt totally fine. What you need to do is get really good at placing gear, including really small gear. Then again, there are plenty of routes at Eldo that I just wouldn't do, and that's fine.

But to throw a little gas on the fire just for fun, if I were to add a bolt, it would be on the original finish of Yellow Spur. I've done that a couple of times, and every time it scares the pants off me. The easiest sequence I can ever find is a very insecure 5.9+ type thing involving tiny crystals and balance, about 25 feet out from the last piece.

GO

Guy H. wrote:I think the beauty of Eldo is that you can escape the masses by getting on routes that are runout.

I agree.

I'm not crazy anti-bolt, or anti-retro-bolting. But there is so much climbing in the front range where people don't have to run it out.

nevertheless, I'm curious what routes people suggest for one more bolt.

GabeO wrote:But to throw a little gas on the fire just for fun, if I were to add a bolt, it would be on the original finish of Yellow Spur. I've done that a couple of times, and every time it scares the pants off me. The easiest sequence I can ever find is a very insecure 5.9+ type thing involving tiny crystals and balance, about 25 feet out from the last piece. GO

Do you refer to the 5.8 Robbins Traverse? There is actually great footholds. Try it again and focus on your feet. Keep telling yourself this has been done in hiking boots.

If there was a bolt on the first pitch of the Dub Griffith I would lead it but since there is no bolt on it, I simply won't do it at this point. Not every route has to be within my ability. Not every route has to be safe.

S rated routes in the older guide books are not so much so today.

Tagger, for example takes plenty of gear. But, some of the gear is a bit tricky and can rip if care is not taken when choosing the piece, extending when necessary, and considering the sideways pull as the route begins to arc to the left. Before TCU's, this route was much more risky. Now, it takes plenty of solid gear. It still deserves the R rating, imo, which serves as a heads up to those considering the climb.

Outer Space, as another example, used to be considered R or S at the start of the second pitch. But, with modern gear, one can get 3 or 4 decent pieces in the first 15 feet where the R was considered to exist.

If you look at the most recent guide book by Steve Levin, you may find many of the once S rated routes are now PG13 or PG.

I love Eldo for many reasons. One reason, I get to choose how close to my limit I want to climb on R rated terrain. Is it actually dangerous or just a scary fall that is relatively safe? Or do I just want to push myself on G rated terrain. There is plenty of both. And I'm glad some routes are not too popular.

Maybe the question should be, "What routes in Eldo would get more traffic by adding one more testicle".

Moritz B. wrote: If there was a bolt on the first pitch of the Dub Griffith I would lead it but since there is no bolt on it, I simply won't do it at this point. Not every route has to be within my ability. Not every route has to be safe.

Wait a minute.... There is a bolt on the first pitch of the DG. You clip it just before traversing right.

Moritz B. wrote: Do you refer to the 5.8 Robbins Traverse? There is actually great footholds. Try it again and focus on your feet. Keep telling yourself this has been done in hiking boots.

Yes there are great footholds - the traverse is fine - probably 5.6 - 5.7 IIRC. But then you need to move up to get to the seam above, and the only way I've ever found to do so is with nasty little smeary crystals.

GO

10-12 climbs in Eldo is just barely scratching the surface of what's out there. There are plenty of G and PG climbs if that's what you're looking for on any given day. I will also say that I've done some of the climbs you mentioned and not felt they were unsafe or needed bolts, and I'm not what anyone would consider a bold risky climber. If you're just going off guidebook ratings, I would second the suggestion to make sure you are looking at the most current guidebook. ACE has a pretty conservative yet rational process for approving new bolts, and I think it works well. It's nice to have a variety of grades in both difficulty and protection so you can choose your adventure on any given day.

When I first started trad climbing (not long ago at all) Eldo was the place I went more often than anywhere else. So when people with more experience made comments like "Eldo scares me." I couldn't understand. Now that I've climbed in other areas a bit more, I get why. But I think rather than put bolts in places people have done without for so long, it's better to just add bolts when fixed pins come up missing. If all the pins from the pin ladder on The Yellow Spur came out, it'd be a much more intimidating lead (and belay) unless the fixed pro were replaced.

If it's R rated, it's R rated. I'm reluctant to lead anything above PG there after a scary lead on Two Tone Dihedral, where I found hardly any placements and the ones I did find would hold the pro, but probably wouldn't have held a fall. Sketchy. But I wouldn't want to see it bolted due to that. I'd like to see an option on MP to give a protection grading to trad routes though.

You can give a protection rating on Mountain Project. When you rate the route, there is also a drop down menu for safety.

Monty, there is A bolt on the first pitch but I always thought that section where the fixed nut is, is super scary.

To sum it up:

OLD GEAR: when old gear finally falls out or breaks, new gear often fits or a like4like replacement has happened at times. Routes are similar or better than the past.

RUNOUTS: many of the runouts are on easier terrain (anthill) or the falls are high on the route and, while long and probably a bit scary (i.e.metamorphosis) are relatively safe.

CLASSICS: some of the classics (yellow traverse) are not that great and the ground can be covered by other decent routes.

NON-CLASSICS: so few people climb the "other walls" not mentioned in the composite (not comprehensive) guidebooks that if you want a 5.7 you can always find a route at any grade that is worth your effort.

Since only a couple of people really answered the question of "what classics routes would get more traffic if they had one more bolt", there aren't very many routes that are so classic and so good that they deserve more traffic.

AS an extension of the above--traffic on the cattle routes is ok, expected, and does not bother people.

Finally, Eldo is Eldo. This aligns with some of my other experiences as well. C'est la Vie is often populated even though the first pitch is not the easiest or safest 5.9 in the park. I often see parties on the bulge as well. Those experiences are what they are and people are looking for that.

Thanks for all of the banter. Eldo is an amazing place and great treasure.

Interesting question. Having climbed a fair amount in Eldo my thought was... "shit, for most of the routes I'd like to do one bolt really wouldn't make a difference in the grand scheme of the route."

Someones example of Hair City comes to mind.

Bolting routes down to a lower common denominator is an entirely flawed premise - raise yourself up, don't bring the climbs down - and there aren't a lot of routes originally done with a bunch of pins which are no longer there today. If anything, the older routes as originally put up were a bit burlier due to having all been done on passive pro before cams hit the scene.

Maybe more what's needed is a first 'National Cam-less Weekend' to lend some real insight into those old classics which are often taken for granted these days.

Healyje wrote:Maybe more what's needed is a first 'National Cam-less Weekend' to lend some real insight into those old classics which are often taken for granted these days.

This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but since the original issue has been dealt with forward backwards and sideways, I suppose I don't mind chiming in.

I love doing routes on all passive gear as an added challenge. Truth be told, I'll almost always reach for a nut before a cam, if I think I can use it.

I recently met a couple who seemed to treat passive pro as "specialty gear" that they only bring up climbs if they know in advance that a key placement requires it. And I'm talking about in the Northeast, not the desert southwest. It's bizarre. Then again, they may not be the only ones. There was this guy who posted to ask about what cams he needed to lead a popular short finger crack. He seemed incredulous that it might be possible to use nuts.

GO