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unexpected foot move for barn-dooring

Original Post
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

I was working on a 5.11 route a couple of days ago, and ran into a problem with swinging off sideways -- Then my partner gave me a non-intuitive move for preventing it.

So now I'm wondering if there's a special name for this foot move. And what other situations I should be thinking about using it for.

How it happened ... (Photos added further below) ...

Slightly overhanging. Start with my left hand low on a positive diagonal undercling. Reach my right hand way up + out diagonally to a positive hold.

Next step my left foot up to a higher foothold, but about 12 inches to the Right of my right foot. So I stepped my left leg across in front of my right leg -- with the outside edge of my left foot onto the higher foothold (which is the obvious easy way).

Next I needed to reach high with my left hand, so I released the undercling -- and immediately swung off, falling to my right. Tried it again, trying to keep my body as quiet and close to the rock as I could -- and unmistakably barn-doored off again. Not even close to holding in balance.

My partner said: "Oh you need to use your _inside_ edge on that foothold."

Since I'm not a ballet dancer, I did not have the flexibility to simply just do that. The closest I could get was to place the tip of my left foot on the hold, pointing straight in. Then as I released my left hand, I pivoted my left foot so the heel rotated toward the right side, so then the inside edge on the foothold.

Remarkably I was now easily in balance, and successfully made the high reach with my left hand. Not a hint of barn-door swing.

Unexpected because it's such a strange way to step across.

Unexpected because just changing the direction of my foot made such a big obvious difference for balance against swinging off barn-door.

Unexpected because I had been told by lots of good sources (and so I've practiced it lots and lots) that to get better balance for reaching up with my left hand, I should be stepping on the outside edge of my left foot.

Is there a special name for this "step up across and pivot onto inside edge" move?

Why does it work?

How do I know when I should consider using it?

Ken

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
kenr wrote:I was working on a 5.11 route a couple of days ago, and ran into a problem with swinging off sideways -- Then my partner gave me a non-intuitive move for preventing it. So now I'm wondering if there's a special name for this foot move. And what other situations I should be thinking about using it for. How it happened ... Slightly overhanging. Start with my left hand low on a positive diagonal undercling. Reach my right hand way up + out diagonally to a positive hold. Next step my left foot up to a higher foothold, but about 12 inches to the Right of my right foot. So I stepped my left leg across in front of my right leg -- with the outside edge of my left foot onto the higher foothold (which is the obvious easy way). Next I needed to reach high with my left hand, so I released the undercling -- and immediately swung off, falling to my right. Tried it again, trying to keep my body as quiet and close to the rock as I could -- and unmistakably barn-doored off again. Not even close to holding in balance. My partner said: "Oh you need to use your _inside_ edge on that foothold." Since I'm not a ballet dancer, I did not have the flexibility to simply just do that. The closest I could get was to place the tip of my left foot on the hold, pointing straight in. Then as I released my left hand, I pivoted my left foot so the heel rotated toward the right side, so then the inside edge on the foothold. Remarkably I was now easily in balance, and successfully made the high reach with my left hand. Not a hint of barn-door swing. Unexpected because it's such a strange way to step across. Unexpected because just changing the direction of my foot made such a big obvious difference for balance against swinging off barn-door. Unexpected because I had been told by lots of good sources (and so I've practiced it lots and lots) that to get better balance for reaching up with my left hand, I should be stepping on the outside edge of my left foot. Is there a special name for this "step up across and pivot onto inside edge" move? Why does it work? How do I know when I should consider using it? Ken
A picture would help.

I think what you are doing is called "pulling with your toes."
Kai Huang · · Aurora, CO · Joined May 2008 · Points: 105

So, when you step across, what did you do with your right foot? Keep it on the hold or flag point to the right?

I think what you mean/need to do is shifting your center of gravity a bit to the right and directly under your right hand to prevent that barn door. Too achieve this, you can either point/flag your right foot to the right and use outside edge of your left foot or open your left hip and use inside edge. Another option to try would be bumping your right foot up to that same hold but flag your left foot behind right foot and point to the right.

Regardless what you do, I think it's just a subtle shift of body weight.

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

photos ...

step left foot up + across with toe pointed straight in:

step left foot up + across

pivot left heel right-ward and stand up on inside edge:
pivot foot + stand up on inside edge

Rob Gordon · · Hollywood, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 115

My guess is that the route wasn't standard overhang. There was some type of bulge preventing a traditional step and flag from working and keeping your body tight. Opening your foot allowed you to use compression to stay tight around the bulge. (Could be some other shape than a bulge.)

Either that or you were forgetting to flag the right foot originally.

Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90

Looks like an inside flag. Which I honestly can't say that I use all that often. Inside flags seem to work in situations where you are almost fully extended on the leg that's on the foothold... but there are always exceptions.

Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971

Definitely done that a few times on steep routes. Not a common move, but certainly in the book of tricks!

beensandbagged · · smallest state · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0

................How do I know when I should consider using it? Ken

When you think it might work.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Just flagging, but flagging backward across your leg. Do it all the time not but never heard of a special name for it.

I think I have used it alot more doing boulder problems than on normal rope route though. I know of a few V5-V6 problems that it is used including a toe hook going behind the leg.

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35
ViperScale wrote:Just flagging, but flagging backward across your leg. Do it all the time not but never heard of a special name for it. I think I have used it alot more doing boulder problems than on normal rope route though. I know of a few V5-V6 problems that it is used including a toe hook going behind the leg.
Unusual flagging but still flagging, not an inside flag either. A subtle shift of your weight to the left. Very likely not a steep overhang, a move left around a bulge or arête, perhaps?
I have done this on roped climbs, including a toe hook/scum with the right foot, as ViperScale mentioned. Definitely subtle and not good enough to think of it and pull it off during onsight.
Edit to add: instead of flagging your right leg behind your left (and possibly creating a nasty rope sandwiched between legs situation on lead), is it perhaps possible to do a heel hook with your right to create a three point in contact situation?
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Thanks for the pictures, very helpful..

In image one you have a stable base of support between both hands and your feet.

Once you release your L hand, absent counteracting momentum, your body will rotate down and to the right to come to a new equilibrium. Unless you have Elastic Girl like flexibility, you won't be able to maintain yor left foot in a backstepped position, so it will be pulled off the foothold and you will barndoor.
IF the left foot were a deep flake, you MIGHT be able to counteract the rotation by outward pressure on the flake with your foot, stay in the backstep and stabilize your position, but that isn't a common move.

If you toe straight into the left foot hold, then allow your foot to rotate towards the right, you will again end up in a stable position with your center of gravity within your base of support, which will be created between your right hand and left foot. You may need to dig in and pull with your left toe to maintain the tendency of your body to drop further to the right to hang directly beneath your right hand.

The outside flag in image two will bring your center of gravity closer to the upper left hand hold, possibly making the left hand move to the finish hold easier. It will make your balance less stable though. An inside flag is another option, and might bring your COG even further left, but is a more difficult move. In addition, the position of your right leg at the end of move one leads naturally to an outside flag. Might even be able to generate a little momentum from the right leg, almost like a pogo move.

evolve · · Durango, CO · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 250

It's amazing how minor body positioning can make such a huge difference. There have been several times when I've found rotating my foot or moving it a few inches in one direction unlocks a move.

That flag looks super awkward though. Have you tried flagging your right foot out right?

flag right

There may be subtleties to the climb that make flagging to the right not work but I had a hard time finding a scenario where the position you show felt comfortable. I usually only find myself back flagging if I need to reach across my body.

back flag

Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90
S. Neoh wrote: Unusual flagging but still flagging, not an inside flag either.
Correct, the black pants confused me. Couldn't clearly see the position of the flagged leg.
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
kenr wrote:Unexpected because I had been told by lots of good sources (and so I've practiced it lots and lots) that to get better balance for reaching up with my left hand, I should be stepping on the outside edge of my left foot.
That’s not always true. It depends on a lot of factors, one of which is body position.

To me, what you have sounds like more of a balance issue than any specific technique issue. According to your description, the whole problem should be solved if you simply do a normal flag with your right foot (flagging it to the right). Picture of the actual route would help. Looking at the picture you posted, it does not look like you’re stable. If you analysis your body position by drawing a triangle between your right hand and both feet, your center of gravity (generally centered in the hip area) falls outside of that triangle. That’s an unstable position. You’re doing a reversed outside flag (flagging the right leg behind your left leg), which doesn’t make sense in this position (right hand on, left foot on the inside edge, reaching with the left hand). It looks extremely awkward and unbalanced to me. A normal flag would put your body in a much more balanced position whether you use the inside edge or your outside edge. That’s why an actual picture of the route may help in looking at it, maybe it’s just a really weird move.

In general, you use the outside edge (backstep and dropknee) not because you get better balance, but because it is more energy efficient. Your balance depends on the relationship between your center of gravity and the triangle (or line) formed by your points of contact. Outside edge is usually used in conjunction with twist lock, allow you to pull minimally with your arm while reaching with your other hand. Inside edge is usually used in conjunction with lock-offs (in your picture example, your right arm is locked-off), which is more strenuous and best avoided if possible. BUT lock-off does allow you to keep your body closer to the rock (because your shoulders, chest, and hip are square to the wall), while twist-locking bring your center of gravity just a couple of inches away from the rock by the turning of the body. The angle of your hand also changes subtly, with lock-offs you can keep your wrist closer to the wall, while in a twist-lock your wrist has to be a little further from the wall to accommodate the width of your body. This subtle change in the center of gravity and wrist angle can make a huge difference when the hold is really small, or when the move is really balancy. But in your case, since you said the right hand hold is really positive, I think your balance is off, otherwise you wouldn’t swing off from the outside edge.

Check out Neil's video for more on inside edge, outside edge, normal flags and reverse flags.
youtube.com/watch?v=Usee0F_…
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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