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Mind Control Techniques - How to up your Headgame

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
ViperScale wrote: Panic will never help you, my biggest falls were when i panicked and tried to rush a piece of pro off of a shitty hold when there was the biggest jug on the route sitting right there.
True! Developing that self-control can be so difficult, and once developed it takes work to maintain. We all know that feeling of being tense and pumped while trying to place a piece from a bad stance, and then as soon as it is clipped you realize that you are one move from a comfortable rest. Climbing strategically and punching between rests is the way to go on strenous trad climbs, but it takes a lot of self-control to force yourself to do so.

ViperScale wrote:It all comes down to the same thing...Doesn't matter if the risk is a 50ft run out on 5.8 or a 10ft 5.12, you still control your mind the same way.
False! Totally disagree. Again, easy/dangerous terrain is an entitely different beast than hard/safe terrain. Yes, both can make you scared. And yes, in both cases you need to understand and control that fear. However, in those two cases the reason you are scared is totally different, and the correct response to that fear is also different. On easy/dangerous terrain, controlled fear is legitimate and rationa nd will keep you safe; if you fall off you will get hurt, and as such, you respond to the potential fall by guarding yourself against it. You climb cautiously, reverse moves, make sure each movement is 100% solid. You make sure you don't fall, and increase your level of control. if you are scared, it is because you are unsure or not confident that you can maintain that control.

You can't do this on hard terrain. If I try to make sure each move is 100% solid on 5.12 terrain, I am going to waste energy, get pumped, and fall off. You have to rely on protection, not cautious movement, to keep you safe. Caution in your movement will lead to failure; when climbing at your limit, a degree of "risk" must be considered in each move. Not danger-risk, but rather moving in a way that might be less secure, but uses less energy, and thus makes you more likely to successfully complete the pitch. Here, you accept the potential fall, and relinquish some degree of control. If you are scared, it is because you are not comfortable with being out of control.

Climbing 50 feet above your gear on 5.8 is about having the confidence that you can keep yourself far, far away from the "I'm about to fall off" line. Climbing 10 feet about your gear on 5.12 is about being comfortable with riding right on top of that line, and knowing that if you do cross that line the fall will be acceptably safe.

In short, on runout 5.8 you have to learn to say "I will not fall." On safe 5.12 you must say "I am OK with falling, and will not hesitate to push myself to failure." Entirely opposite approaches.
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
JCM wrote: False! Totally disagree. Again, easy/dangerous terrain is an entitely different beast than hard/safe terrain. Yes, both can make you scared. And yes, in both cases you need to understand and control that fear. However, in those two cases the reason you are scared is totally different, and the correct response to that fear is also different. On easy/dangerous terrain, the fear you feal is legitimate and rational; if you fall off you will get hurt, and as such, you respond to the potential fall by guarding yourself against it. You climb cautiously, reverse moves, make sure each movement is 100% solid. You make sure you don't fall, and increase your level of control. You can't do this on hard terrain. If I try to make sure each move is 100% solid on 5.12 terrain, I am going to waste energy, get pumped, and fall off. When climbing at your limit, a degree of "risk" must be considered in each move. Not danger-risk, but rather moving in a way that might be less secure, but uses less energy, and thus makes you more likely to successfully complete the pitch. Here, you accept the potential fall, and relinquish some degree of control. Climbing 50 feet above your gear on 5.8 is about having the confidence that you can keep yourself far, far away from the "I'm about to fall off" line. Climbing 10 feet about your gear on 5.12 is about being comfortable with riding right on top of that line, and knowing that if you do cross that line the fall will be acceptably safe.
I don't intend to speak for ViperScale, but I do agree with him. I'm guessing that what he meant was not that they are the same situation, but rather that the method of controlling the mind applies equally to both situations: Assess the risk / consequences and respond according to the reality of the situation, not according to some fantasy situation or a bunch of low-possibility "maybes".
Darbley Sterway · · Aspen · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 5

Rock Warriors Way by Arno Ilgner

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Kent Richards wrote: Assess the risk / consequences and respond according to the reality of the situation
This statement is general to the point of uselessness. Basically, "be a rational creature" and "don't let irrational fears control you". Yeah, got it. For both situations, you have to be rational if you want to respond rationally. This is true for basically anything in life, so it doesn't really tell us much in terms of how to specifically tailor a response to these situations. Furthermore, saying "these situations are the same" is counterproductive to identifying the very important ways in which they differ, and the ways that the appropriate repsonses to each type of fear differ.
JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Kent Richards wrote: the reality of the situation, not according to some fantasy situation or a bunch of low-possibility "maybes".
I do agree with you totally on this second point. This is trending a bit off-topic, but the things that a lot of people worry about regarding safety in climbing are often totally out of line with what the data indicate are the real risk-driving concerns. A classic example is the climber who backs up the belay loop on their new harness, for the sake of redundancy. Not a risk-driving failure mode...

This may be an interesting topic for a separate thread, essentially, "Dumb things that climbers worry about, but shouldn't". AKA "Real vs. Imaginary Risk".
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I bend spoons

Moritz B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 185

Thanks JCM for making a couple of valid points. You just made me realize another bad thing I´m doing which is demanding to be in total control all the time.
When I´m climbing moderate but dangerous terrain I enter that 100% control mode, that you´ve mentioned. Every move should be reverseable, I have to feel like I´m in total control.
I think I´ll have to climb in a different zone to push my onsight level, especially on endurance finger cracks with few rests. I should probably turn on my sport zone - NO TAKES!

It is much easier to feel brave sitting on a desk and thinking about climbing then when you are in the situation for real :-)

Michael Brady · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,316
M Sprague wrote:I bend spoons
What spoon?
Moritz B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 185
Mike Brady wrote: What spoon?
Uri Geller onsights your trad project!
Jake wander · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 195

for me, the biggest thing has been starting to aid climb.

its not that when i started trad climbing, i wasnt confident in my gear, i was. its just that aid climbing is so much scarier cuz you are only relying on your gear which causes you (or at least me) to wish i was hanging from my hands rather than some tiny cam. then when i went back to trad, things went a lot better.

im not some high grade trad climber but the things that used to scare me dont as much anymore.

Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
JCM wrote: This statement is general to the point of uselessness. Basically, "be a rational creature" and "don't let irrational fears control you". Yeah, got it. For both situations, you have to be rational if you want to respond rationally. This is true for basically anything in life, so it doesn't really tell us much in terms of how to specifically tailor a response to these situations. Furthermore, saying "these situations are the same" is counterproductive to identifying the very important ways in which they differ, and the ways that the appropriate repsonses to each type of fear differ.
To each their own.

The generality of the statement is what makes it so useful to me...

JCM wrote: Basically, "be a rational creature" and "don't let irrational fears control you". Yeah, got it.
Not at all. "Assess the risk / consequences and respond according to the reality of the situation" describes a methodology for acting rationally. Very different from saying "be a rational creature" and "don't let irrational fears control you".

IOW: How can one be a rational creature and not let irrational fears control them? Start with constantly assessing the risk / consequences and responding according to the reality of the situation instead of according to something imaginary. It's an action plan... A generalized one, yes, but it works for me :-).

And, yeah, every situation has different risks / consequences and requires a custom analysis / response. I wasn't claiming otherwise by any means...
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Moritz B. wrote:... but as soon as I´m one or two feet...
throw this shit away.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
JCM wrote: ... In short, on runout 5.8 you have to learn to say "I will not fall." On safe 5.12 you must say "I am OK with falling, and will not hesitate to push myself to failure." Entirely opposite approaches.
i completely agree w/ JCM on this - they are 2 completely different things. i know a lot of folks that are good at one or good at the other, but oddly enough i don't really think many of them are good at both.

a good friend of mine who climbs a shit ton went through a soloing phase for a while. i said something along the lines of 'man, that must have really helped your lead head'. i was kind of surprised by his response. he said it actually really screwed up his lead head because he had a hard time transitioning from a no-falls mentality on easier climbing to a i-am-likely-going-to-fall-and-thats-ok mentality on harder routes. after i thought about it a bit, it really did make sense though. they are definitely opposite approaches.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Every few weeks someone starts a thread about this topic and there is always a sweeping range of various types of advice on how to up your head game using various techniques. Over the years I have learned it's not nearly that complicated. There are no special techniques, the key to upping your head game is experience. People are naturally afraid of the unknown, regardless if that's climbing, skydiving, or even taking a hard test in some cases. As you gain experience, the unknown becomes known and you loose the fear. So just get out there and climb hard and fall, and after awhile it will be second nature and you wont be worried about it.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
20 kN wrote:Every few weeks someone starts a thread about this topic and there is always a sweeping range of various types of advice on how to up your head game using various techniques. Over the years I have learned it's not nearly that complicated. There are no special techniques, the key to upping your head game is experience. People are naturally afraid of the unknown, regardless if that's climbing, skydiving, or even taking a hard test in some cases. As you gain experience, the unknown becomes known and you loose the fear. So just get out there and climb hard and fall, and after awhile it will be second nature and you wont be worried about it.
I somewhat disagree. Repeating the same experience over and over again can just as easily ingrain bad habits. You've said the same thing about belaying. I've been climbing for nearly 20 years and I'm just as irrationally afraid of falling as I was when I started. The falls I have taken have done little to make me less afraid of it. So yes, experience does help, but it requires the correct experience and not experience that just perpetuates the fear.
JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Has not been mentioned yet, but one should also find good role models and climb with them often. The fastest and most effective way to improve your climbing is to find climbers who are stonger, bolder, and wiser than you, climb with them as much as possible, and listen to the advice they give you. Getting better at anything is a lot easier when someone else can lead the way for you.

My biggest one-time increase in (trad) climbing ability was the result of 3 weeks spent climbing with some nutcase Australians in Squamish. My previous experience at that time had been mostly in the overly-traditional New England mindset, wherein falling on gear is a rare once-per-season event. It was eye-opening to then climb with people who would just go for it all the time, taking falls on gear nearly daily. Once this mindset started to rub off on me, by trad leading improved immensely.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
csproul wrote: I somewhat disagree. Repeating the same experience over and over again can just as easily ingrain bad habits. You've said the same thing about belaying. I've been climbing for nearly 20 years and I'm just as irrationally afraid of falling as I was when I started. The falls I have taken have done little to make me less afraid of it. So yes, experience does help, but it requires the correct experience and not experience that just perpetuates the fear.
I'm with you on this one. Over 25 years of climbing and I'm scared to death of falling. Not that I might die but rather that I'll get injured.

Getting stronger doesn't really help. All it does is raise the point where I get scared. I can run out pitches where I'm confident that I won't fall, like a 5.9 handcrack but a technical 5.8 smear/face makes me whimper. When I was stronger I ran out harder climbs but only because I knew I wouldn't fall.

I finally realized that I wasn't a good onsite climber but able to redpoint well. Still can't fall but I know I can make it to the next rest because I've done it before and that's what I rely on.

I've tried falling on sport routes but can't even jump when the bolt is at my ankles. So I climb trad where if I'm freaked out I just stop and place gear. Even in the middle of a crux. Problem comes when I see no gear. I'll go up and test the moves but won't continue once I find the path irreversible.

Could I climb harder with a cooler head? Hell yeah! Right now I just bring the Ice climbing mantra to the rock game. You shall not fall!
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
csproul wrote: I somewhat disagree. Repeating the same experience over and over again can just as easily ingrain bad habits. You've said the same thing about belaying. I've been climbing for nearly 20 years and I'm just as irrationally afraid of falling as I was when I started. The falls I have taken have done little to make me less afraid of it. So yes, experience does help, but it requires the correct experience and not experience that just perpetuates the fear.
I agree it takes the correct experience. But naturally climbing will typically give you the correct experience. If you're afraid of liebacks because they are hard to place pro, and you go climb two weeks of nothing but liebacks in the Creek and send a number of them, you probably wont be afraid of them anymore. But if the odds are against you, the pro rips and you deck, sure, you will probably worsen the situation. But how else are you going to get comfortable with liebacks if you dont actually climb them?

You said you're afraid of falling but have been climbing 20 years. How many times have you actually fallen in those 20 years? You cannot just practice the thing you are afraid of occasionally or once, say it dident work, and then move on. Mental fortitude is a perishable skill. You have to practice regularly to keep your brain in check and not just occasionally.

Have you tried going to the gym and doing nothing but whips for several days? Say one fall no less than 10' in length for every climb you do for an entire week? I would be quite surprised if you were still afraid of falling after that, at least in the gym anyway.

And what did I say about belaying?
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
rocknice2 wrote: I've tried falling on sport routes but can't even jump when the bolt is at my ankles.
Have you tried starting with tiny falls? I've seen a few people get over their fear of falling by starting with tiny falls with the bolt above them (falls being mere inches in length) and gradually working their way up to falling from above the bolt.
Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81
20 kN wrote: Mental fortitude is a perishable skill. You have to practice regularly to keep your brain in check and not just occasionally.
+1
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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