A little whining about draws removed from Sinopia

Not really sure why I'm posting this, since I don't think missing project draws ever come back...

Anyway, I had 4 draws on the upper headwall of Sinopia which were removed by somebody.
I don't really get it.

The easiest sport route at the crag is 12c, so whoever grabbed them ought to be at least somewhat familiar with the concept.
The crag isn't near trails or roads, so errant boy scouts aren't likely culprits.
There are a couple of obscure trad lines, so maybe it was a crusty old trad, but those routes are pretty darn neglected.

It's not like they were a bunch of Petzl Ange draws- just 4 mismatched third string draws to make it a little easier, especially to clip the second bolt above the ledge, which is kind of sketch if you are short.

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

I can handle losing $20 worth of draws, but grabbing other people's stuff still strikes me as pathetic and kind of despicable.

powhound84 wrote:This never fails to amuse me. Leave personal property in a public place, get upset when some lowlife steals it. They are a dick for taking them and you deserve the loss for leaving them unattended in a public place. I know there are ethics that most of us follow but you have way too much faith in your fellow man if this surprises you. That being said, I hope it was a misunderstanding and the person gets your draws back to you.

"Deserve the loss" is a little strong don't you think? It's not like I left them on the Pearl Street Mall.
Not totally unexpected seems more apt to me. It wasn't an accident that I only partially equipped the route and with well used draws at that.

Wife said they may have been gone for 2 weeks now. She been up there a few times w/ Bobbi, used them once & then they were gone the next time, thinking somebody must've sent already.

I wouldn't have minded my draws being gone as long as they were reused somewhere else as a community service...oh well.

reboot wrote: I wouldn't have minded my draws being gone as long as they were reused somewhere else as a community service...oh well.

I had that same thought, pretty sure they'll be hanging somewhere else. Just wish they had let me RP first!

It did occur to me that CU is just back in session and maybe some transfer student from New England is importing his/her misplaced booty rules. But that seemed like an unfair slur on collegians.

Chris. T. wrote:DON'T TAKE SOMEONE'S PROJECT DRAWS UNLESS THEY ARE IN BAD SHAPE AND YOU ARE REPLACING THEM !!!

Mark E Dixon wrote:4 mismatched third string draws

Not sure the sort of shape you third string is in, but maybe someone thought they looked bad enough to not trust and cleaned them off?

"Don't leave your gear hanging, just like dropped gear - finders keepers, losers weepers. Arriving at a cliff and seeing somebody's gear hanging there is ugly and takes away from the next persons experience, why not rap and get your gear and when you come back rap and put it back in or just use a top rope. It's not like you're doing a clean ascent anyway. If you go to Eldorado and look up at Redgarden Wall all those quick draws and all that chalk it just looks shitty!"

And don't leave those bolts either. It ruins the experience for everyone to see that hardware. Rap down with a wrench and take them off. You can put them back next time you want to climb.....

Jon W wrote:I leave my car, bike, harley, etc parked in public areas, . (on the street...etc.) my tent in the national forest....... and expect it all to be left alone. To justify taking something that is not yours is fucking stupid. If it is not yours, IT IS NOT YOURS.... even if it is a $20 bill laying on the sidewalk...if you didn't put it there it is not yours. If I catch someone stealing from me, I will do everything in my power to make sure they can't ever do it again and I don't mean calling the cops. There is nothing worse a rotten-ass thief.

So about that $20 bill...

What do you do about it?

Reminds me of the nice clip stick I found one day at the crag. I didn't take it, but feel like I should have because I'm pretty sure someone besides the owner ended up with it. Maybe I should have taken it and left a note to contact me to reclaim it.

Chris N wrote:Don't leave your gear hanging, just like dropped gear - finders keepers, losers weepers. Arriving at a cliff and seeing somebody's gear hanging there is ugly and takes away from the next persons experience, why not rap and get your gear and when you come back rap and put it back in or just use a top rope. It's not like you're doing a clean ascent anyway. If you go to Eldorado and look up at Redgarden Wall all those quick draws and all that chalk it just looks shitty!

Thanks for your insights from the cutting edge of climbing.

One thing I have thought about doing is getting a small set of "gym draws" or even proper permadraws for this situation. These would have a quick link on the bolt side and a steel biner on the rope side. This would require a bit of an upfront investment, but they would likely never get stolen (wrench-tight quicklink) and would take a long time to wear out (steel biner). The idea would be to temporarily perma-draw a route if you plan to project it for the season. It would take a bit of extra time to put them on, but then you'd have the peace of mind of knowing that your gear wasn't going to dissapear, or get wrecked by lots of other people climbing on you aluminum biners. It seems like any time you leave up project draws on a popular route for a season, they are likely to be unusuable by the end of the season due to grooves/sharpness. A perma-draw is just a more appropriate long-term solution than a normal climbing quickdraw. Probably what you would do would be to put up regular quickdraws your first time up a route, and then maybe next time up the route you could tag up the wrench and the load of steel so that you could switch the draws out on lower. Once you send, tag up the wrench again and take down the permas to use on next season's big project. Of course, this method would only make sense for a really long term project.

I haven't actually implemented this idea, because I'm cheap and lazy and tend to project routes that already have permadraws in place.

Not that you should have to do any of this to keep your project draws from being stolen at a sport crag. Too bad about the draws- more just annoying than a major loss, but still. Hope the project goes well anyway. Sounds like the training is working?

Buy stainless hardware that is the same steel or very similar to the bolts on the route if you insist on leaving draws up.

Does it rain at this crag? If yes, then the fact that the aluminum is touching the steel in the presence of an electrolyte (water) means that you are increasing the rate of corrosion on the steel parts. Maybe this is the discussion we need to be having instead of the weekly bitch session about how someone stole draws. Theft is still bad, but maybe the climbing community in general should revisit how we determine the "ethics" of project draws. So much to consider, UV exposure, sharp aluminum on old biners etc. Maybe climbing mag can make a flow chart. Their are definitely situations where someone is extremely justified in taking down the draws. (I don't know if thats the case here)

powhound84 wrote:This never fails to amuse me. Leave personal property in a public place, get upset when some lowlife steals it. They are a dick for taking them and you deserve the loss for leaving them unattended in a public place.

Your attitude is bullshit. It's equivalent with saying a woman "was asking for it" after a rape because she was dressed "wrong".

As others have said, we leave all sorts of things unattended public places. Our cars, houses, bicycles, boats, tents.... so many things they can't be listed.

And we have certain expectations they won't be stolen, which is why theft is a crime and thieves are put in jail. Theft is a crime (sin) in every religion and in some they cut off your hand.

Taking draws off a route is theft, pure and simple. Just like stealing a car, breaking into a house, or stealing from an unattended campsite, picnic area or job site.

Attitudes like yours are part of the problem.

Mark E Dixon wrote:Not really sure why I'm posting this, since I don't think missing project draws ever come back... Anyway, I had 4 draws on the upper headwall of Sinopia which were removed by somebody. I don't really get it. The easiest sport route at the crag is 12c, so whoever grabbed them ought to be at least somewhat familiar with the concept. The crag isn't near trails or roads, so errant boy scouts aren't likely culprits. There are a couple of obscure trad lines, so maybe it was a crusty old trad, but those routes are pretty darn neglected. It's not like they were a bunch of Petzl Ange draws- just 4 mismatched third string draws to make it a little easier, especially to clip the second bolt above the ledge, which is kind of sketch if you are short. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding. I can handle losing $20 worth of draws, but grabbing other people's stuff still strikes me as pathetic and kind of despicable.

They're not missing.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Thanks for your insights from the cutting edge of climbing.

Beat me to it!! I was going to go with "...said the crusty old guy with hobnail boots", but your comment is better. Sorry Mark, hope you get your stuff back.

John Byrnes wrote: Your attitude is bullshit. It's equivalent with saying a woman "was asking for it" after a rape because she was dressed "wrong". As others have said, we leave all sorts of things unattended public places. Our cars, houses, bicycles, boats, tents.... so many things they can't be listed. And we have certain expectations they won't be stolen, which is why theft is a crime and thieves are put in jail. Theft is a crime (sin) in every religion and in some they cut off your hand. Taking draws off a route is theft, pure and simple. Just like stealing a car, breaking into a house, or stealing from an unattended campsite, picnic area or job site. Attitudes like yours are part of the problem.

John, you're right, it's theft. But I don't think powhound's point is suggesting otherwise. My point of view is that whilst a certain things can be safely left unattended, if it's a small item that can be picked up and walked away with, someone is likely to do just that. Wallets are often returned because they have identification in them, and most of the contents is specifically for the use of the owner. Cellphones on the other hand, can be wiped clean and sold on, so I'm sure they are returned far less often. And I don't know anyone who intentional leaves their wallet or cellphone out in a public place unattended.

The point though, is that when deciding whether or not to leave your possession unattended, the question is not "Is it illegal for someone to take it?" but "Is it LIKELY someone will take it?" I remember shooting a crossbow at a fair when I was a kid. The sights were off and aiming down them scored me no hits at all. I noticed this quickly but refused to adjust my aim and continued using the sights because "They SHOULD be accurate!" Needless to say, I did not win any prizes. If you or anyone else wants to leave your personal belonging unattended, feel free to do so. Just don't be surprised when someone comes along and steals them. Some people steal stuff and no amount of saying that they shouldn't is going to stop them.

John Byrnes wrote: Your attitude is bullshit. It's equivalent with saying a woman "was asking for it" after a rape because she was dressed "wrong".

way way waaaaaaaaay not even close buddy... let's work on our analogies...

Draw Thief wrote: They're not missing.

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You some kind of sick quickdraw fetishist?

Nope, it's the resident MP troll...

JCM wrote:One thing I have thought about doing is getting a small set of "gym draws" or even proper permadraws for this situation. These would have a quick link on the bolt side and a steel biner on the rope side. This would require a bit of an upfront investment, but they would likely never get stolen (wrench-tight quicklink) and would take a long time to wear out (steel biner). The idea would be to temporarily perma-draw a route if you plan to project it for the season. It would take a bit of extra time to put them on, but then you'd have the peace of mind of knowing that your gear wasn't going to dissapear, or get wrecked by lots of other people climbing on you aluminum biners. It seems like any time you leave up project draws on a popular route for a season, they are likely to be unusuable by the end of the season due to grooves/sharpness. A perma-draw is just a more appropriate long-term solution than a normal climbing quickdraw. Probably what you would do would be to put up regular quickdraws your first time up a route, and then maybe next time up the route you could tag up the wrench and the load of steel so that you could switch the draws out on lower. Once you send, tag up the wrench again and take down the permas to use on next season's big project. Of course, this method would only make sense for a really long term project. I haven't actually implemented this idea, because I'm cheap and lazy and tend to project routes that already have permadraws in place. Not that you should have to do any of this to keep your project draws from being stolen at a sport crag. Too bad about the draws- more just annoying than a major loss, but still. Hope the project goes well anyway. Sounds like the training is working?

Jon, thanks for asking. Training seems to be going well, getting on and up a bunch of old incompletes and projects. Really some fun routes! Finally got to the Slab, which is super fun and looking forward to cooler temps and Vasodilator. So still improving after 45 years of climbing. Have a bunch of young partners, kind of drives me crazy to see how much faster they improve than I do, but inspiring nevertheless.

I have considered putting a permadraw on the sketchy clip on Sinopia, but hate to lose that much $ if it gets snagged too.

Still in the rainy NW yourself?

Dave Holliday wrote: Food for thought

Has some good points. Of course rape is more serious than property theft and we should not equate women as property. But the bottom line is that both attitudes are victim blaming, and both are shitty. It's not too hard, you have no right to rape anyone (much less because how how they dressed) and you have no right to steal other people's draws. Period.

If you really are trying to make a noble statement about perma-draws, take them down and have the guts to give them back and tell the owners exactly why you did so. Otherwise you are a thief and a coward.

Sorry about your draw Mark. Some people kinda suck.

powhound84 wrote: Productive 2nd post ever from a blank profile. I guess I should take a back seat to such an active member of the mountain project community. I'm pretty confused about how the routes I climb and why I climb them have anything to do with an observation about people refusing to learn from others' losses. Also not sure how my comment was "noob shit". Feel free to send me a PM if you want to meet up and talk about it over a beer.

Without getting into the specific topic in this thread, I agree that criticizing someone's comments because they "only climb (insert grade here)" is weak.