Tagline Rappel

reboot wrote: Yes, if there are easy approach pitches that needs to be roped up. But if you do have to rap the full length of the route (as in that's how you are supposed to get off), a pair of doubles is way faster than dealing w/ a 6mm tagline. It's obviously situational, but being able to get off faster (like when weather turns) is usually a larger safety margin than doing the easier stuff faster. A pair of 8mm double is still more rope (not to mention independent) than a single 10mm & lighter than the 10mm+6mm combo. That's what I do too...which really slows down on multiple rap, not to mention making it harder to pull than a pair of doubles & it can fuck you up if your main line is stuck.

wfscot wrote: I completely agree that safety is a holistic concept and that speed (or at least the ability to move fast when needed) often equals safety. That said, I have simuled with doubles (mountaineer's coil over shoulder plus bowline on bight short tie-in). Coiling two strands does take longer than one, but we're talking a few minutes at most. On the transitions, too, I'd wager it's no more than a 30 second per transition difference. All-in-all, I'd say that is a wash against the inevitable clusterf#@k that is a tagline rappel. Double ropes are rated to hold a fall individually. That's the whole point of doubles. Twins are a different story. Great point. I have yet to get into big wall, but that makes perfect sense. I'm still not hearing anything along the lines of "I've used doubles extensively but I still like taglines"...

it all depends on the type of climb ... you do

for example if the climb is one with a lot of easy pitches with only a single or two harder pitch ... you can cover alot of ground simuling with a tibloc or two as protection ...

you can simul on doubles sure ... but if you want to use a tibloc 8mm is the very low end of what MIGHT hold ...

now if you expect to rappel down all the pitches doubles or twins are "better" for the actual raps than a thin tag ... but then if you expect to walk off and the tag line is "just in case" then a single would likely be faster

ive never seen anyone personally only take an extra "30 seconds" over a single for the belay when block leading ... perhaps when swapping leads ... but block leading generally requires restacking of the rope especially at hanging belays

the other thing is that with doubles both climbers must be experienced and practiced with them ... and this is not a given in north america ... most "experienced" climbers can manage a single rope belay just fine, but not as many can do the same as doubles

for block leading its even more pronounced ... you can take a relative multi newbie on a multi with a single and be just fine, just flip the rope and tell em to drop a loop or two ... with doubles especially if yr using double rope belaying thats much more problematic

as to weight lets get a few numbers out ...

2 X mammut genesis 8.5mm = 2 X 47 = 94 g/m

2 x mammut phoenix 8mm = 2 X 42 = 84 g/m

2 x mammut twilight 7.5mm = 2 X 38 = 76 g/m

mammut infinity 9.5mm + mammut phoenix 8mm = 58 + 42 = 100 g/m

mammut serenity 8.7 + mammut twilight 7.5mm = 51 + 38 = 89 g/m

mammut infinity 9.5mm + mammut 7mm cord = 58 + 33 = 91 g/m

mammut serenity 8.7 + mammut 6mm cord = 51 + 22 = 73 g/m

so as you can see the infinity 9.5mm + 7mm is lighter than the the double 8.5mm ... and the serenity 8.7mm + 6mm is lighter than even the double 8mm or 7.5mm

as to rapping as a block or normally ... just figure out what works best for you ... some folks here have said it works fine, others have had issues ... note that NO device is rated for both a 6mm AND > 9mm ... so you take your chances

it would be interesting to see how well an autoblock knot (backup) would hold under a decent load with such different diameter ropes as well

either way it is perhaps "safer" to put the line through the chains, fix the main line with a quick clove hitch and then the first person will have no slip of the thin line .... they get to the bottom tie off the rope with a bit of a loop (also prevents losing the rope on traversing raps) ... and the second takes off the clove and raps down ... this also gives you alot of options if you miss the rap or if line gets cut with the first person down (a real possibility with a thin line)

i use doubles a decent amount on out little roadside crags out here ...

Moah roadside cragging

whether you prefer a single + tags or doubles is up to you ... there are advantages and disadvantages to both ways

;)

I have a 8mm static tag line that I have been using for years. Actually it is probably due to be replaced. Maybe because it is a little fatter than some of the super skinny tag lines you guys are talking about, but I always rap on both strands and have never noticed any slippage. On mulit-pitch rappels I generally alternate which rope is threaded through the anchors to so that I can save time and start threading the one I am pulling while the second climber is rapping. I will use an EDK if I am worried about the rope getting stuck, or a double fishermans if I am not. In hundreds of rappels I dont ever recall any slippage. I have used the 8mm tag line with ropes as skinny as 9.2 and as fat as 10.2. Maybe I dont get slippage because the ATC guide I rap with is rated down to 7.7mm. Super skinny tag line might save a little space/weight. When I replace it I might just go with one of those new super skinny cords that are rated as single or doubles. I think they get down into the low 8's now, and if something gets stuck you could always re-lead on either one. I am just not inclined to climb on double ropes. I can barely keep 60m of rope manged at belays. I sure dont need 120m. Tag line in a bullet pack is the way to go for me.

Alex Abrams wrote: I disagree with the notion that there is no advantage to not rappelling on both ropes. You are saying that, because of slippage, it is a bad idea to tie your lead and tagline together for a double rope rappel such that you are pulling the lead line, and I happen to agree with that. However, the ability to lead back up on your lead line to free a stuck rope is important to me. I know that some people have said the notion that you will have to lead back up is somewhat of an over-reaction. And maybe some of you guys are confident enough in your ability to pull the ropes cleanly every time when bad weather is coming in or it is getting dark that you will just rap on both ropes. But that is not me. Because if you rig your rappel to pull the tagline, and your ropes get stuck, and you have multiple 200' raps below you, and you and your partner are alone on the mountain, and there is bad weather coming in and it is getting dark, what are your options? Call for a rescue? Cut free the bit of tagline that you are holding in your hands and make many rappels leaving gear to get to the base? I would rather always know that I can lead back up on my lead line to free the stuck rope, but it is a personal thing I think. Although these guys ran into the above situation, and obviously they know more than I do: http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/2005/14_cordes_trango_aaj2005.pdf Anyway, for me, the above logic leads me to conclude that the best way to rig a tagline rappel is to thread a carabiner-block rappel such that you are single-rope rappelling on your >= 8mm tagline (so that you are following the manufacturers recommendations on what diameter rope is appropriate to use with your B-lay device), and pulling your lead line. I realize that some people have asked "Why rap on one rope when you have 2?" But for me, the above logic makes sense. And you could use the above system and rap on both ropes, but then since the rappel is rigged to pull the lead line, slippage would occur, correct? So it is better to only rap on the tagline in that situation. But it is a personal thing, there are definitely reasons why tying your ropes together or rigging a carabiner block to pull the tagline could be better. Also, thanks for posting the link to your tests 20 kN, that was definitely helpful too. I am definitely still open to criticism of my ideas.

I am aware of the risks of not having the dynamic rope to lead back up on. This issue occurred to me on Cloud Tower when our dynamic rope got stuck in a mega-freak accident. As we were pulling it, the tail somehow whipped up and into a bolt hanger (the only bolt on the rap) and jammed. We had to lead back up on the 6mm.

Anyway, using the method shown in the OP's link, you thread the rope with the dynamic rope, so either way you are pulling the dynamic rope and thus there is no reason not to rap on both strands. If you're going to thread the tag line, then sure they are advantages to only rapping on one strand. However, you initially said that you agree with not threading the tag line in the anchor, but then said you would configure the system to pull the dynamic rope. How are you going to pull the dynamic rope if it is threaded through the anchor?

In any case, it's a trade off. Using a tagline is an advanced skill for those willing to compromise some level of convenience and safety for less weight. If your primary concern is always having a rope to lead on, just bring twins or halves, or even another single.

Chris Massey wrote:I have used the 8mm tag line with ropes as skinny as 9.2 and as fat as 10.2. Maybe I dont get slippage because the ATC guide I rap with is rated down to 7.7mm.

To get at why, I'd look more at how friction can vary based on rope diameter in the same device. What you say may have a role. But experience lowering with different diameter ropes within my ATC's range (with all else the same) tells me that fatter cord diameters produce more friction. [We sometimes use my gym partners 9.2mm and sometimes my 10.0mm.]

Whatever the source of difference, it'll be unnoticeable until the difference overcomes the drag produced up at the top anchor. I've heard a rule of thumb of 30%. This could actually be the reason you haven't seen any slippage.

Hmmm, try it once with a good strong pulley as the top anchor? Be prepared for slippage.

I regularly rap on both strands of an 8.7mm Serenity EDKd to a 6mm New England Ropes Prusik Cord. Just an FYI, the knot of that combo will pull through Fixe rings pretty easily if you allow the 6mm to flow through your device faster than the rope.

20 kN wrote: This issue occurred to me on Cloud Tower when our dynamic rope got stuck in a mega-freak accident. As we were pulling it, the tail somehow whipped up and into a bolt hanger (the only bolt on the rap) and jammed. We had to lead back up on the 6mm.

Are you kidding me?! Crikey, talk about Murphy's Law . . . Great story.

Very interesting thread. Been contemplating the use of a tag line into own rope-soloing, so this is great info.

Brian Abram wrote:I regularly rap on both strands of an 8.7mm Serenity EDKd to a 6mm New England Ropes Prusik Cord. Just an FYI, the knot of that combo will pull through Fixe rings pretty easily if you allow the 6mm to flow through your device faster than the rope.

Watch out on placeslike Cannon...no rings at a lot of raps.

I have never heard about 30% slip ?! Never experienced it either.

john strand wrote:I have never heard about 30% slip ?! Never experienced it either.

It is the friction on the top anchor that can allow a lighter person to remain on the ground while lowering a heavier person.

20 kN wrote: I am aware of the risks of not having the dynamic rope to lead back up on. This issue occurred to me on Cloud Tower when our dynamic rope got stuck in a mega-freak accident. As we were pulling it, the tail somehow whipped up and into a bolt hanger (the only bolt on the rap) and jammed. We had to lead back up on the 6mm. Anyway, using the method shown in the OP's link, you thread the rope with the dynamic rope, so either way you are pulling the dynamic rope and thus there is no reason not to rap on both strands. If you're going to thread the tag line, then sure they are advantages to only rapping on one strand. However, you initially said that you agree with not threading the tag line in the anchor, but then said you would configure the system to pull the dynamic rope. How are you going to pull the dynamic rope if it is threaded through the anchor? In any case, it's a trade off. Using a tagline is an advanced skill for those willing to compromise some level of convenience and safety for less weight. If your primary concern is always having a rope to lead on, just bring twins or halves, or even another single.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "so either way you are pulling the dynamic rope." But I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, so let me try to be more clear:

The way I see it, there are 3 different techniques that we are talking about:

1. Thread your dynamic rope through the rings. Tie the end that you just threaded through the rings together with the tagline in an EDK. Double rope rappel to the next station. Pull the tagline to retrieve both ropes.

2. Thread your dynamic rope through the rings. Tie a figure 8 on a bight on the end that you just threaded through the rings. Clip the 8 on a bight back to dynamic rope below the rings with a locking carabiner. Tie off your tagline to the locking carabiner. Single rope rappel on the dynamic rope to the next station. Pull the tagline to retrieve both ropes.

3. Thread your >= 8mm in diameter tagline through the rings. Tie a figure 8 on a bight on the end that you just threaded through the rings. Clip the 8 on a bight back to the tagline below the rings with a locking carabiner. Tie off your dynamic rope to the locking carabiner. Single rope rappel on the tagline to the next station. Pull the dynamic rope to retrieve both ropes.

Each of these methods seems like it would be valid in some climbing situations. With methods 1 & 2, the disadvantage is that if the ropes gets stuck when you are pulling the tagline to retrieve both ropes, you don't have any good options for retrieving the stuck ropes. You seem to have direct experience with this situation, and chose to lead back up on your 6mm tagline to retrieve the stuck rope. That does not sound like too much fun to me, so I would prefer to use method 3, unless someone can give me a compelling reason why I should not use this method.

Perhaps if you are in a big rush (weather coming in, getting dark) and the rappel route is free of any features that the ropes could possibly get stuck on, then it would be advantageous to use method 1. If you are not comfortable rappelling on your tagline at all, then it would be advantageous to use method 2.

Alex Abrams wrote:That does not sound like too much fun to me, so I would prefer to use method 3, unless someone can give me a compelling reason why I should not use this method.

That method is fine, and if you had an 8mm tagline I agree that would be a good option. However, the main point of a tagline is to save weight, but if your tagline is just as heavy as a half rope, why not skip all the tagline nonsense and just get a set of twin ropes? Then you have the best of all worlds with no weight penalties.

Bill Lawry wrote: It is the friction on the top anchor that can allow a lighter person to remain on the ground while lowering a heavier person.

What ? 30%..60' on a 200' ropes???

I thought the friction came mostly from the belay device .

In a rappel situation, stretch should be minimal unless the person is jumping during the rap.

I always thread the tagline unless the tagline is 8 mm dynamic and then I will take the chance. I have had to release pitches in the dark and cold due to stuck ropes so its not worth taking the chance for me.

I always thread the tagline unless the tagline is 8 mm dynamic and then I will take the chance. I have had to relead pitches in the dark and cold due to stuck ropes so its not worth taking the chance for me.

20 kN wrote: That method is fine, and if you had an 8mm tagline I agree that would be a good option. However, the main point of a tagline is to save weight, but if your tagline is just as heavy as a half rope, why not skip all the tagline nonsense and just get a set of twin ropes? Then you have the best of all worlds with no weight penalties.

- most folks have a single anyways ...

- managing a single is easier at belays especially with newer climbers

- a single is much cheaper to replace as it gets worn ... The tag line will hardly see any wear

- the weight of a say an infinity + twiglight is roughly the same as a paur of genesis

- you can use a grigri with a single ... And its not at the lower end of a tibloc/minitrax for simul protection

Using a single + tag isnt necessarily to save weight .... But many times to save money (cheaper to replace a single than a set of halves) or to stick with single rope technique which everyone knows, managing half or twin ropes experience is not a given

;)

20 kN wrote: That method is fine, and if you had an 8mm tagline I agree that would be a good option. However, the main point of a tagline is to save weight, but if your tagline is just as heavy as a half rope, why not skip all the tagline nonsense and just get a set of twin ropes? Then you have the best of all worlds with no weight penalties.

I do not see the advantage of twin ropes for most of the climbing that I do. Since you have to clip both ropes to every piece, twin ropes do not help to reduce rope drag at all. It doesn't seem to me that there is any added redundancy in a twin rope system when compared to a single rope system because you do not trust an individual twin rope to hold a leader fall. And, since twin ropes are not designed to hold leader falls individually, if you tie them together for a full-length rappel and your ropes get stuck on the pull... that is not a great situation either.

On the other hand, I think that double ropes are probably the safest system for making full-length rappels because no matter how you rig your rappel, if your ropes get stuck on the pull you will always have a bit of rope in your hands that is designed to hold leader falls on its own, and you can lead back up to retrieve the stuck ropes.

But for me, saving weight is not the only advantage of using a single + tagline system. I also appreciate the convenience of using a single rope when leading and when at the B-lay. Also, since the tagline goes in the second climber's backpack, who cares if it is a bit heavier? Haha.

Most climbers will purchase a single as their first rope (unless you are British perhaps) and then at some point in the future may choose to invest in a nice pair of doubles. However, if you don't want to invest in a pair of doubles, you can still have a system that will allow you to make full-length rappels with the relatively cheap purchase of a 65m x 8mm tagline. And, with the use of method 3, you can be assured that if the ropes become stuck when you are pulling them, you can still lead back up on your single rope to retrieve the stuck ropes. Another (albeit small) advantage of method 3 is that since you are always single-rope rappelling on the tagline, you are putting less wear and tear on your single rope. Also, as others have mentioned before a single + tagline system is more versatile because it allows the second climber to follow by jugging, allows you to use certain simul-climbing techniques that are not as practical with double ropes, and allows you to haul up a backpack on the tagline.

For the above reasons, method 3 seems like the most conservative technique for a tagline rappel to me. However, the other techniques certainly have their advantages. For example, with method 2 (carabiner block with the single rope), you can use a really skinny tagline because you will never be rappelling on the tagline if all goes swimmingly. However, if you use method 2 and your ropes get stuck, you are truly screwed because you don't even have a bit of tagline that you are comfortable rappelling on. Method 1 (Tie together single and tagline with EDK) is perhaps the fastest to set up and is in between the other two methods in terms of how conservative it is because at least you are comfortable rappelling on your tagline.

john strand wrote:What ? 30%..60' on a 200' ropes??? I thought the friction came mostly from the belay device . In a rappel situation, stretch should be minimal unless the person is jumping during the rap.

The 30% value I floated is not about stretch. It is about resistance to a loaded rope running through the top anchor / ring / biner. Does that clarify?

john strand wrote: What ? 30%..60' on a 200' ropes??? I thought the friction came mostly from the belay device . In a rappel situation, stretch should be minimal unless the person is jumping during the rap.

He's talking about FRICTION, you're talking about ROPE STRETCH. Good god, it's like watching a duck trying to talk to a horse.

Bill Lawry wrote: The 30% value I floated is not about stretch. It is about resistance to a loaded rope running through the top anchor / ring / biner. Does that clarify?

Although it's close to 40%. The UIAA states that the average biner (whatever that is) has an efficiency of about 60%. I found that standard, oval carabiners seemed to be around that value when I tested them. I recall a small group of oval biners being about 57% efficient at 450 lbf when I tested them awhile back. I only tested them under static conditions though so I am less sure how efficient a biner is on a fall (presumably maybe slightly more efficient?).

aikibujin wrote: He's talking about FRICTION, you're talking about ROPE STRETCH. Good god, it's like watching a duck trying to talk to a horse.

Thanks for the clarification dickhead..I do walk a bit like a duck