Bad Bolts on Rogers

Most of the bolts on Rogers are not stainless. Even the new climbs matrix and that thing just left of LF regretably have lots of non stainless bolts. Rogers is a Wet envornment. Most of the rap stations look pretty bad but Screaming meanie rap stations/ belays the bolts are hideous. especialy bad considering most of the belays offer runouts before the 1st piece. The bolts on Screaming meanie are 30+ years old and on some of the belays not even 3/8th. they look 5/16th to me and so rusted that I Garuntee you I could snap em with only 2 fingers on the wrench. The hangers are so toasted with cross galvinic corosion that they look ready to crumbel under body weight. The cool, old, home made hanger should be left as is. Its history and not a nessicary piece. there is a bomber stopper about 18in past the bolt and a good pin 10 or so ft before it. The belay/ rap stations do need fixing in a serious way.

As on many Adirondack cliffs/crags there is a hodge-podge of fixed gear on Roger's. Even on Little Finger there is the angle piton placed the wrong way in the crack. Stuff gets old and it should be replaced. SS perhaps wasn't the standard when those routes went in. Hell, bolts weren't even acceptable but DK went up and put some in. Sorry your "Roger's Experience" wasn't what you had hoped. Think about DK and his partners heading up there BITD with a few pitons and a few 1/4" buttonheads (that 2 bolt Screaming Meaney 1st anchor you didn't like used to be one 1/4"er and some tat). No wonder Meaney was screaming. Some of his bolts still remain, notably on the first pitch of Two Bits. We left them alone. I think that was the pitch I used a pair of tied off vice-grips on as a running belay. Don't know if they would have held but then I didn't test them. I suspect that the anchors will get replaced someday, but it's a lot of work and costly. Not everyone is up for that kind of work and expense. Me, I'm just glad the routes are there and I can have a fun time with friends every now and then. If I don't like the gear I can usually figure something out. All part of the Adirondack Experience.

I'm happy to pay for the hardware and help out replacing them. I have a place to stay in Hague. I also get great prices on Hilti SS/316 wedge anchors. Please PM me if I can be of any help. I enjoy climbing at Rogers Slide and would put up time and money if FAs would like to replace stuff.

tom rosecrans wrote:Sorry your "Roger's Experience" wasn't what you had hoped.

No need to get defensive/offended Tom. Nick posted a valid FYI to the community. Aging bolts is an important climber topic, one that has to be addressed in the coming years as countless bolts everywhere reach the age of replacement. It's currently a critical action item for the access fund:

accessfund.org/educate-your…

I have gladly offered money and/or purchased bolts for such uses in the past, and would also offer up some cash for bolt replacement on Roger's Rock (despite only climbing there once every other year). Whomever ends up taking this on, just let us know where to send our paypal. :)

I have zero bolt placement experience so can't be of any use there.

Tom. thats a pretty funny post. My Rogers experience was excelent as it always is:) I was simply pointing out that the belays and rap stations on Screaming meanie are in really bad shape and need replaceing . Your response to that seems to be to poke a bit of fun at me for being a wimp, thump your chest a bit for how brave and stupid you were BINTD and declare that shitty hardware on belay/rap stations is the accepted norm in the Daks. that simply tells me that the locals are cheap, lazy or incompetent. Perhaps all of the above. I spend a minimum of $300.00 a year (some years tripple that) on hardware for FA's and anchor maintenance in VT and NH so not buying the expensive and a lot of hard work line.

Personally I hold local guide services responsible for anchor replacement though they rarely pull through with my requests for hardware funds. Guide companys use our resorces to make money. The least they could do is help keep the anchors maintained. My last trip to Poco the fixed anchors over there were a joke as well. Screaming Meanie probobly gets guided a fair bit. I know I have seen guides on it. That 1st anchor is complete crap and some guide is going to hang out there with 2 or 3 clients and just pretend everything is fine? Nice.....

Matrix went up 2006 and Parralel lines went up in 07. Zero excuse for non stainless hardware especially in a marine enviornment. The FA partys should fix those bolts. I know I would feel responsible if they were my climbs.

Cheers, Nick

This thing on P2 of Screaming meanie is way cool. Should be left in place for history. not a critical piece by any means. Good stopper one half move past it.

There are lots of skull and crossbones bolts all over the Adirondacks. Old, rusted, never intended for climbing, they're out there. Whether or not they contribute to some "Adirondack experience," it's kind of scary.

People are actively replacing this junk, but it's like four guys. Poke-O has been getting an upgrade lately as well as stuff closer to Keene Valley but like Tom said it takes time and money. This stuff doesn't get done overnight. Actually that's false, because placing bolts and using power drills on state land is illegal and therefore people with good intentions have to sneak around in the middle of the night to replace this garbage. Seriously.

This isn't the first time this summer I've heard someone complain about poor bolts in the Adirondacks. To which I respond with some variation of what I just wrote adding "well, you're welcome to help out." You own a drill, right Nick?

I'm just busting your balls... you have some good points but calling an entire community "cheap, lazy or incompetent" because you don't like the bolts at Rogers Rock isn't going to earn you much more than an extended middle finger from me. I'm personally doing what I can. You know my opinion on placing bullshit hardware from that other climbing site, so we really don't have much to argue about here.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:This thing on P2 of Screaming meanie is way cool. Should be left in place for history. not a critical piece by any means. Good stopper one half move past it.

Looks like you/someone clipped it. Then it must be bomber, right? :-D

Bill Kirby wrote: I'm happy to pay for the hardware and help out replacing them. I have a place to stay in Hague. I also get great prices on Hilti SS/316 wedge anchors. Please PM me if I can be of any help. I enjoy climbing at Rogers Slide and would put up time and money if FAs would like to replace stuff.

You rock Bill. Your friend, Gail

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Tom. My last trip to Poco the fixed anchors over there were a joke as well.

What routes? I've climbed there quite a bit through a wide range of grades and have rarely (perhaps once) come across an anchor I'd regard as a 'joke'.

I've personally looked into the Access Fund's grant for replacing bolts but there are couple reasons why the Adirondacks would never win the funding:

1) As MaxSuffering mentioned, bolting in the Adirondacks is technically illegal. I'm sure certain rangers would be more than happy to write a ticket for every bolt they could find in the park.

2) There is no true local coalition or advocacy group because no one wants to assign their names to a group that would replace fixed gear. Refer to reason #1.

3) They require you place 1/2" SS. 3/8" is standard (at least here, where the rock is hard and dense) and AF won't fund anything less than 1/2" when placed by a power drill. 3/8" is only accepted when hand drilled, but I'll let you be the one to have fun with that.

Certain places are getting a gradual SS update, take Poke-O for example. But it really is about 4 people doing most of the work. And unfortunately, replacing hardware isn't their full-time job so it will never go quite as quickly as the climbers who visit the ADK want it to.

what about the guide services that make their liveing off those bolts? they should pony up and do some of the work. Does anyone know if it is possible to get permits to replace existing fixed anchors in the park?

Any bolted rap or belay anchor that is rigged with nylon is in fact a bad joke.
I find it somewhat common that areas that make a big deal out of being either anti bolt or looking down on bolts often sport some fairly ugly amature messes on their rap anchors. For instance in NH you will find many more ugly anchors @ cathedral VS other more bolt friendly areas.

Max. thanks for your efforts. If there really is only 4 of you doing the work maybe you should call the rest out for being cheap and lazy;) and yes if you are a guide and you think its acceptable to hang out on that anchor on Screaming Meanie with two paying clients as a party of 3 and you do not feel the need to tell your boss that the anchor needs replacement then the word Incompetent comes to mind.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: what about the guide services that make their liveing off those bolts? they should pony up and do some of the work. Does anyone know if it is possible to get permits to replace existing fixed anchors in the park? Any bolted rap or belay anchor that is rigged with nylon is in fact a bad joke. I find it somewhat common that areas that make a big deal out of being either anti bolt or looking down on bolts often sport some fairly ugly amature messes on their rap anchors.

I'm almost positive that you're referring to the anchor at the top of The Sting. The bolts are super shiny but whoever replaced them retied the mile of tat with rap rings. This can easily be corrected with a couple short lengths of chain. Have at it.

Sure there are guide services in the ADK. Many of these folks are certainly aware of the need to maintain gear and are doing their share of work for what they use regularly--I'm sure you've never complained about all the beefy hardware at Deadwater. But to pin the need for bolt/anchor replacement on the small, local guide services and their few employees (might I add mostly these folks do it as side work, not a FT thing) is pretty harsh. And trying to get approval from the APA to bolt (you want to use a power drill in wilderness lands?!) is a total joke.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Max. thanks for your efforts. If there really is only 4 of you doing the work maybe you should call the rest out for being cheap and lazy;) and yes if you are a guide and you think its acceptable to hang out on that anchor on Screaming Meanie with two paying clients as a party of 3 and you do not feel the need to tell your boss that the anchor needs replacement then the word Incompetent comes to mind.

In the words of the young college student at the Barkeater, after exclaiming that I didn't trust an ounce of the pro that I placed on Flexi-flier (save for the two pieces down low in the crack, "But there's a bolt!"

Some people are just plain ignorant.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: I'm almost positive that you're referring to the anchor at the top of The Sting.

In addition to The Sting, I believe Green Onion and Southern Hospitality have a similar setup. As of 2012 the Certified Raw anchor was in poor enough shape that I traversed over to the Son of a Mother anchor.

Despite finding the tone of Nick's posts to be counterproductive (ADK folks are cheap, lazy, and hypocritically anti-bolt) as well as overstating the poor condition of some the raps, he does have some valid points. The "slings on hangers anchor" is far from ideal and many bolts are indeed in need of replacement. Perhaps a "Bad Bolts in ADK" similar to the Red Rocks thread would be good idea in order to identify the problem areas.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:And trying to get approval from the APA to bolt (you want to use a power drill in wilderness lands?!) is a total joke.

This would fall under the umbrella of the particular area's UMP, and approved as a whole by the DEC and APA. The APA are not terribly concerned with such things as they are the condition of water resources and dumping, for example. Trail signs and markers nailed to trees is much more destructive to 'conservation' efforts than replaceable stainless steel bolt in rock. They simply can't object without looking irrational and hypocritical. Bolts are standard practice now across MANY managed lands across this country, so there's plenty of precedent to point to for successful climbing regulation.

It hasn't been tried, so it's a case of projecting a negative outcome. There is/was a climber's coalition for the ADKs but it's largely inactive and underground. There doesn't seem to be any interest in getting climbing official with the State (DEC) so we miss out on many things like the grants from the Access Fund, trail maintenance, freedom to maintain things without fear of reprisal, and a say when policy decisions are made (etc). When I last inquired of this from the community the response I got from the climbing elders was "it isn't broke so don't fix it". That's a matter of opinion.

All I did was post up that the bolts on Rogers need replacement. In return i got scolded for being a wimp and reminded how tough we were in the old days which is a typical ADK response for any discussion on fixed gear. Then I got the its too much work and costs too much excuse. So yes I called em out in Typical modern internet smackdown style. The thing is I can back up every single thing that I said. I do walk the walk. I do spend tons of my own money and time on both new routes and old route maintence. I have hand drilled over 100 3/8ths bolts so that excuse dosent fly either. Though I do believe that a power drill makes a better hole. I fail to see however how Rogers can be wilderness area with jet skies and power boats raceing back and forth while you climb. Same goes with Poco and the northway.

Yes I do hold guides responsible to at least maintain the trade routes. This is their office. This is where they earn their liveing. They contribute greatly to the congestion on weekends and They damn straight need to give back to the community by takeing responsibility for maintaineing rap stations.

Anyone who riggs modern bolts with Nylon is incompetent in the art of constructing modern climbing anchors. Fact.

Nick, I agree 100% that guides should take SOME responsibility for keeping fixed gear in shape since they're making a profit of public land. I mentioned that at party once and promptly got reamed out by several local guides as to why it was NOT their responsibility. I know Ed Palen of Rock & River personally did a lot of work on fixed gear back in the day but he's not really active anymore. Calling people out and shaming them for being cheap and lazy isn't really going to help anything (even if it's true).

As for permits, the short answer is "no." In briefly examining the U.M.P. and my discussions with forest rangers and other D.E.C. and A.P.A. personal there is no "management plan" for rock climbing anchors of any kind. They are "installations" and when they become unsafe to use they are to be removed or left to rust away. Talking to the D.E.C. about this stuff is like discussing sex-ed with religious fundamentalists, you're not going to get anywhere. A few boots-on-the-ground-rangers seem to understand but their hands are tied.

While I feel that calling all the fixed anchors at Poke-O a joke is being a bit over-dramatic there are indeed a lot of crappy, rap anchors there. Tons of non-stainless mystery bolts at the top of popular climbs and pitches, Great Dihedral, C-Tips, Cooney-Norton/Cosmo Wall, Macho, Cirrhosis... the list goes on. The award winner being Sinful Ways which sports a two-bolt anchor with two rusty chain-links for hangers padded out with a whole bunch of washers. I cannot comment on the condition of anchors at Rogers Rock because I've (embarrassingly) never climbed there.

As for The Sting anchors I have no idea why the bolts were upgraded but rap hangers or chain was not installed instead of webbing. I know who did it and mean to ask what their logic was, I also intend to replace that stuff with chain and links next time I'm over there. I would have done it sooner but I haven't been climbing at Poke-O much this summer.

Given park policy someone should just go quietly take care of the problem ones. Doing so publicly and especially as a for profit company can open up some big liability concerns. In my work with the AF they tend to advise that hardware be replaced by the community in an anonymous manner.

Max. yes it was a bit of a dick move to call them out that way but it's all true.. I was writeing thinking man This is too rough pileing on like this but then I went back a fact checked the whole thing and it's all true.

Bad bolts do fail. Someone got killed in ORG last year. A bolt broke @ cathedral last week. It does happen. Sorry you guys are stuck with the DEC issues. Should get the access fund involved.