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Found gear at the Gunks

Dan Africk · · Brooklyn, New York · Joined May 2014 · Points: 275

Of course, as soon as you try to generalize that most climbers are nice people, a few will be determined to prove otherwise..

No one is saying that you can't ever keep gear you find, or that we gear should be left littering the cracks. I'm well aware of the copious amounts of stuck gear out there, and I'm grateful to anyone who helps clean it up.

What I'm simply saying is that if you get some gear out that was obviously left recently, and can easily find the owner and return the gear to them, that is at least a nice thing to do. If you find a bunch of expensive gear or more than piece or two, I think basic decency demands at least the minimal effort of asking around and maybe a post on Mountain Projects or such. And if you actually locate the original owner of that gear, and you even imply that you have to right to not give it back, I think you're an asshole. Period.

In the 3+ years I've been leading trad, I've never lost a single piece, either mine or a partners (and I place a shitload of tricams and nuts..). So I'm not speaking from the point of view of a 'sore loser'. Though I once got a small cam retrieved that might have otherwise been lost, after a new follower couldn't clean it in the middle of a crux, and I was very grateful to get it back. I've also kept bootie when I've been unable to locate the owner (or the gear was so worthless it wouldn't be worth the effort of anyone to get it back). Speaking of bootie, remember where that term comes from.. Bootie was stolen property, by nautical dicks aka Pirates..

It that makes me self-righteous, so be it. And the only thing worse than a hipster, is a condescending individual who just joined this site two weeks ago and contributed nothing except this one trolling post, telling others to get a new hobby, because their idea of right and wrong is to do "how it was taught to me".. And I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in The Gunks, you might want to be careful about trash-talking Brooklyn while you're there..

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

The booty Rulze were taught to me in the early eightys roughly allong those lines.
Posting them was in response to internet entitlement. Instead of putting effort into retrieveing their own gear many folks seem to simply go home and demand on the internet that their abandoned gear be returned. these are the same people that dial 911 on their cell when they are not hurt because they are afraid to spend a night out in the woods or on a cliff..

NESteve · · Westport, NY · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 0

Ive been climbig at the Gunks for five summers got my start there so I have plenty of experience bud. Rather climb it the 'dacks these days mostly cause of the Brooklyn hipsters who clog the place up every weekend with skinny jeans and trapps-app conversations and whining that thers no gps info to find the rap stations LOL! real mountains and granite vs nyc and north Jerseys outdoor climbing gym you tell me!

Sorry if I only signed up for mp 2 weeks ago -been reading the site for a while just decided to chim in I'll let my climbing speak for me rather than how many times I can post on some website!

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Dan you are obviously very new to the sport. the sport has some funky traditions. You can thumb your nose at them if you like but that does not make you a better person than the folks who play allong with the traditions.

John Gassel · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,388

I thought it's worth a quick update that it was in fact my cam that the OP cleaned - a green alien on Try Again. It's a bit mangled and needs some new trigger wires (very likely from my own work trying to remove it) but I'm glad to have it back.

It's very rare that I can't manage to clean gear, but I had written this one off. I definitely would not have posted on here to try and recover it, nor cared if someone else cleaned it as booty. But as it stands, I'm glad that Lukasz was a good dude and went through the effort of returning it to me. Many thanks! I definitely owe you a beer when I run into you again. Hope some good karma comes your way as well.

lucander · · Stone Ridge, NY · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 260

Alien trigger wires fixed by Jason @ anicescrew.com

He's fixed up a few for me, always does good work.

Alissa Doherty · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 60

I think common decency trumps the booty rules!

One of my favorite stories from the climbing community was actually from John Gassel last winter. A climber left the better part of an ice rack at the base of a climb in NH and after checking back on the gear and with other climbers, John picked it up at dusk. He made immediate efforts to identify the owner online and once found, the guy was beyond excited that his gear was in good hands. The next weekend, the owner met John in Vermont to pick it up and as thanks, brought him two screws to replace one that John had lost in the snow earlier that winter. The owner was obviously really psyched and everyone else was really happy to hear about his unexpected and thoughtful gesture.

Exchanges like that reinforce my love of the climbing community! The booty rules are fine, but in truth, I think most climbers follow the logic that ‘kindness is the greatest wisdom’.

(I might be a bit biased because I placed the stuck cam on Try Again that John battled to get out in the baking sun. Many, many thanks to the OP and his friend for getting it back to John and kudos for your skills removing it!)

Logan Schiff · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 60

I think the current/standard booty rules in use at the Gunks are a perfectly reasonable tradition, though I also feel there is nothing wrong with being a nice person and returning gear too, especially if you know who left it/they are in the vicinity, which has been the case the only two occasions I have retrieved struck cams (I'm not very good or patient at retrieving stuck gear).

Last weekend while climbing in a group of three my partner jammed one of my cams into a crack on Filipinna P1 10 feet off the deck and encouraged me to just keep going after 5 minutes or so of futzing by both me and the third climber since she hasn't been getting out much recently due to work and preferred to replace the cam rather than waste the day dealing with stuck gear.

When we got back to the base there were a couple old timers climbing nearby on the seasons wall. The one guy saw our stuck cam, climbed up unroped and retrieved it with one hand after maybe two minutes of working it. I didn't ask for the cam and in no way felt entitled to it but thanked him profusely when he returned it. I had told him as he was climbing up that he was free to keep it.

PS: Obviously I need to work on my gear retrieval skills.

Alissa Doherty · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 60
sara pax wrote:The proceeding post would in booty rules speak fall under lost gear, which according to the booty rules should always be returned. The booty rules are not cold or selfish, they are decent and just and allign with the good nature of climbers.
If following the "rules", there's no way to tell if this gear was 'lost' or if the owner forgot about it and didn't want to make the hike back up the approach trail to retrieve it that evening. If someone were to follow the booty rules strictly, then they might have kept the gear assuming the owner was too lazy to pick it up. Using the filter of 'common decency' however, John determined that the owner should get the benefit of the doubt and found him to return his gear.

(also assuming that you meant the preceding post which was mine, not Logan's)
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Dan you are obviously very new to the sport. the sport has some funky traditions. You can thumb your nose at them if you like but that does not make you a better person than the folks who play along with the traditions.
+1
Those booty rules posted earlier are merely the written version of what has been the norm at the Gunks and the northeast in general ever since the early 70's (updated a bit to account for the net). Also, after almost 45 years of climbing, it still seems imo that 3 years is that magical point where someone thinks they are a climbing expert and start doling out advice and edicts about what people should do.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Marc801 wrote: +1 Those booty rules posted earlier are merely the written version of what has been the norm at the Gunks and the northeast in general ever since the early 70's (updated a bit to account for the net). Also, after almost 45 years of climbing, it still seems imo that 3 years is that magical point where someone thinks they are a climbing expert and start doling out advice and edicts about what people should do.
Who does that Tradman think he is? With the rules of booty and what not?

Seriously though, I find the booty rules to a game of give and take. I left a sling and two biners one day then found a sling, locker and a nut two days after.
Dankasaurus · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 85

Karma has been mentioned in a booty thread. Please lock the thread now, as no further discussion is necessary.

And now a mantra:

Karma, oh sweet sustainable organic karma.
Karma, oh sweet sweet sustainably shade grown karma.
Oh, how it courses through my veins as I chisel your piece out.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30
Bill Kirby wrote: Seriously though, I find the booty rules to a game of give and take. I left a sling and two biners one day then found a sling, locker and a nut two days after.
Agree. If a piece of mine gets left because I choose to bring a gumby that's on me. I end up finding gear enough that losing a couple nuts here and there is fine. I've lost gear to whipping on it and was more than happy to not deal with trying to get it out and just count it as money well spent. I'm sure someone cranked on it with a tool for a while and got it out and am happy for them. I
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Dankasaurus wrote:Karma has been mentioned in a booty thread. Please lock the thread now, as no further discussion is necessary.
The best example of karma I ever encountered was in the Gunks some time in the 80's....
There was a good climber working at freeing some of the remaining aid lines and putting in some of the earlier 5.12 routes. He was also a bit of an obnoxious dick and a cheap bastard, known for, among other things, pulling fixed pro (pins) out of 7s & 8s for use on his 11/12 projects. He believed his projects were more worthy than those lesser, easier climbs that the masses gravitated toward.

He became aware that there was a fixed cam on the last pitch of Three Doves, so he went up to booty it. Unable to remove it on his first foray, he returned with a hammer and chisel and managed to free it, but in the process a rock chip lodged in one of his eyes. Once on the ground, no amount of flooding the eye with water was able to dislodge the chip.

He sold the cam for $40 but was eventually forced to go to the hospital to remove the chip. Having no insurance, that visit cost him $350.

Karma.
DavidLG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 20

Thought I would add a beginning to what abandonment by law means which state by state has specific requirements. I put this out so that if someone ever gets arrested for theft of what they thought belonged to them under this "Booty Rule" they would be prepared. Yes, I know getting called on this gear is highly unlikely but, it is theft. I do not understand why as climbers we think we can make up our own rules.

Elements of Abandonment

Two things must occur for property to be abandoned: (1) an act by the owner
that clearly shows that he or she has given up rights to the property; and (2) an intention that demonstrates that the owner has knowingly relinquished control over it.

Some clear action must be taken to indicate that the owner no longer wants his or her property. Any act is sufficient as long as the property is left free and open to anyone who comes along to claim it. Inaction—that is, failure to do something with the property or nonuse of it—is not enough to demonstrate that the owner has relinquished rights to the property, even if such nonuse has gone on for a number of years. A farmer's failure to cultivate his or her land or a quarry owner's failure to take stone from his or her quarry, for example, does not mean that either person has abandoned interest in the property.

A person's intention to abandon his or her property may be established by express language to that effect or it may be implied from the circumstances surrounding the owner's treatment of the property, such as leaving it unguarded in a place easily accessible to the public. The passage of time, although not an element of abandonment, may illustrate a person's intention to abandon his or her property
.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

A person's intention to abandon his or her property may be established by express language to that effect or it may be implied from the circumstances surrounding the owner's treatment of the property, such as leaving it unguarded in a place easily accessible to the public. The passage of time, although not an element of abandonment, may illustrate a person's intention to abandon his or her property.

Pretty darn shure that stubby I dropped off P2 of the Dike last winter is abandoned...... I found the 16cm I dropped off Spiral staircase in the spring but had someone else found it first i would have been fine with that.

ClimbLikeAGirl · · Keene Valley · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 15

If no one ever pulled another 'stuck' or abandoned peice of gear out of the Trapps from now until forever, the majority of popular routes would be "sport" climbs before then end of 2016...

...Then the Gunks would loose it's title as a hard-man trad area and it would immediately be dismissed as a decent' trad climbing destination.

...Then all those aspiring NYC gumbo-climbers would end up in the ADK rather than New Paltz.

...Then we'd be surrounded by shirtless hipsters with pomped up hair talking about how much more epic Pete's Farewell is than the orange route at BKB.

Keep hipsters out of the ADK!

Do your duty--clean the booty!

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

+10 :)

TSluiter · · Holland, VT · Joined May 2013 · Points: 314
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Dan you are obviously very new to the sport. the sport has some funky traditions. You can thumb your nose at them if you like but that does not make you a better person than the folks who play allong with the traditions.
Well, actually it literally does make him a better person if the traditions are morally inferior. Just because it is "tradition" doesn't make it correct or moral. In fact, a lot of traditions are really fuckin' stupid. I could make a list.

Though I would imagine most folks practice a much kinder version of those booty rules laid out by Pax.

Anyways OP, hope you can find the owner, good on you.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

it's all about karma. Sometimes the mountain takes away and sometimes it gives back.
If you play by the rules it's give and take. You don't whine and cry when the mountain beats you. You offer your pennance to the the mountain by being a gracious loser. You will then be rewarded by finding a nice shiny new trinket on some climb in the future.

Seems like the new climbers these days have no sense of personal responsibility or honor. Rather than put an honest effort into recovering their gear and accepting that they are not up to the task at hand when they can not recover the gear, they abandon the gear, log in and demand that someone clean up their mess for them and give the booty back. pathetic INMOP.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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