Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

Kedron Silsbee wrote:OK, we get it - it's hard to downclimb when you're belayed in guide mode. Nobody disputes this point. That matters to some people in some situations. It apparently matters a lot to you all the time, which is fine - tell your partners you'd prefer them to belay you off their harness. If you really think the way you get belayed "redefines" climbing, you must have a very narrow definition of climbing.

Mr. Healy has been climbing much longer than almost anyone on this site (except of course for Rich Goldstone), and the wealth of experience he brings to any discussion is almost always worth listening to. But like the rest of us, he has his prejudices (e.g., guide mode devices and grigris), and that leads to rigid/absolutist opinions sometimes. Silly and uninformed drivel is inevitable on any internet website, but it's discouraging when someone of healyje's standing feels a need to resort to wild hyperbole to make a point. To the extent that this diminishes his credibility on other subjects, it's doubly discouraging.

JL

christoph benells wrote:does anyone out there know healyje's reputation in his local climbing scene? I do, and it's not good.

Oh, popular I'm definitely not at the local Beacon Rock scene, but for entirely different reasons.

I was just one of the dudes until 2005 when on wanting to put up an FA in an area that either abutted or was in the line demarcing a permanently closed part of the cliff, so I tried to find out but know one knew for sure. And after a decade of listening to the locals piss, moan and whine about the seasonal peregrine closure I decided to get involved and figure out what could be done about it.

That was nine years after the seasonal peregrine closures began in '96 and the preceding nine years had been one of entirely antagonistic relations between local climbers and the park and WDFW staffs that emcompassed endless breaking of the closure and shit-talking around "fuck the man" and "it's our rock and none of their business". Think of the cooperative management in Eldo, the Gunks or NRG and then think the opposite of that and you'll have the basic picture of the relationship.

As an ex-photojournalist I decided to investigate the legal, legislative, policy basis for the closures, interviewed everyone involved with the closure, and began a peregrine monitoring program. I also started replacing bad anchors and in end replaced 74 anchor sets and checked all the pins at the crag either replacing or resetting any that were loose or bad. All that was with an eye towards starting to restore a trusted working relationship with the land managers of record based on mutual respect. All that went over like the proverbial turd in a punchbowl and I was accused of consorting with the 'enemy'.

And the acrimony and adversarial relationship between the locals and land managers persists to this day with the locals recently re-entrance into the politics being 110% laser-focused on busting the peregrine closure (oh, and they give a rats ass about your closures). Unfortunately they either failed or didn't take Politics and Sales 101 and instead just kept and keep pissing off the very people who would have to say yes in order to lift or modify the closure. Go figure.

So a bad rep? You betcha, and one I'm entirely proud of. And the shit show and flea circus is still in full swing so feel free to partake in a post here and in a couple of posts on the preceding page which are a classic example of how it's all going...

saxfiend wrote:...but it's discouraging when someone of healyje's standing feels a need to resort to wild hyperbole to make a point. To the extent that this diminishes his credibility on other subjects, it's doubly discouraging. JL

Well, that is the beauty of it. It sounds absolutist and like hyperbole, but then few of you have lost as many friends and acquaintances as I have or read decade after decade of accident and death accounts from the same inane and stupid shit day in day out. And most of it can be traced back to exactly the absolutist hyperbole and misguided crap I'm clearly just ranting on about. Crikey, with the explosion in the demographic it now almost seems like tightly schooling fish just blithely ignoring the ones being picked off around the edges.

Let's put it another way. How many people reading this post have ever dropped someone, been dropped or know someone who has either dropped or been dropped? Or maybe the faster question would be how many people here haven't dropped or been dropped and don't know anyone who either has happened to...

im surprised this hasn't been mentioned previously. to easily lower in guide mode when second is hanging on rope:

1) clip a biner to the hole on the opposite side of the plate as the attatchment hole that goes to the anchor (or if it's too small like the alpine smart, keep some cord tied in a loop through the hole).
2) take a double length sling or longer and redirect it through a point on the anchor higher than the belay plate (the shelf will often be at the optimal height).
3) with one or both hand(s) hold the break side and either with your foot or hand pull on or step in the redirected sling

you should already keep enough cord or webbing for on your harness to use as a prusik and footloop in an emergency so it doesn't require any extra gear.

It hasn't been mentioned because it is common knowledge.

if this is common knowledge then why do people claim that one cannot safely lower with a plate in guide mode?

eli poss wrote:if this is common knowledge then why do people claim that one cannot safely lower with a plate in guide mode?

Because that isn't the claim. The claim is you can't feed rope to a downclimbing partner who is trying to work a problem other than in some crude or course manner.

tradvlad wrote: However, I never lower in guide mode. I don't think it is safe, as you pointed out.

eli poss wrote:

Missed that. Certainly not my point. You can lower safely in guide mode, but you do have to know what you're doing.

Healyje wrote:have to know what you're doing.

ah the one caveat that many climbers miss or ignore. [insert rant about gyms, sport climbing and the new generation of climberes]

eli poss wrote: ah the one caveat that many climbers miss or ignore. [insert rant about gyms, sport climbing and the new generation of climberes]

The difference is I'm asserting that it sucks even if you do know what you're doing.

Stagg54 wrote: There is a definite technique to it and lots of people do it wrong. Again not really the fault of the device any more than it is the gri-gris fault when some noob doesn't know how to use it and drops someone.

Thank you. I'm certainly aware of the techniques - my partners and I have practiced them.

Still, I'm uncomfortable being belayed with a plaquette for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. And, while I trust my partners, I still have some nagging doubts when being lowered in guide-mode.

Ted Pinson wrote: As far as this argument...direct belays are guide standard (one of the videos I posted was done by an AMGA guide), so I don't get why anyone would ever argue against their use beyond the matter of simple preference. Nevertheless, there are other threads for that...

Your use of "guide standard" might imply that is the AMGA standard default way of belaying. I don't think you meant that.

I think someone who paid attention at AMGA guide skool recognizes that plaquette belays have a viable use in some circumstances.

OTOH, someone who proposes that this is the "AMGA way" and that it should always be done that way should have stayed after skool.

As with almost everything in climbing... "it depends"

FrankPS wrote: I really don't know how it is "ill considered" and why your belay sucked, but I've been belayed hundreds of times on trad climbs in guide mode and it was fine. I suspect it's a problem with your belayer, not the setup. Belaying a follower in guide mode is not the problem.

Exactly. I would hate to think how many uncomfortable horrible belays I would have had without guide mode. For the second as well. How awkward it would be to climb multipitch belaying everything off my harness.

For a hanging belay guide is the way to go.

eli poss wrote:im surprised this hasn't been mentioned previously. to easily lower in guide mode when second is hanging on rope: 1) clip a biner to the hole on the opposite side of the plate as the attatchment hole that goes to the anchor (or if it's too small like the alpine smart, keep some cord tied in a loop through the hole). 2) take a double length sling or longer and redirect it through a point on the anchor higher than the belay plate (the shelf will often be at the optimal height). 3) with one or both hand(s) hold the break side and either with your foot or hand pull on or step in the redirected sling you should already keep enough cord or webbing for on your harness to use as a prusik and footloop in an emergency so it doesn't require any extra gear.

I believe that's how people get dropped when lowered in guide mode.

Using your foot to control the friction is a bad idea. I'll admit that I never tried it, but I imagine is like learning to drive a manual transmission car for the first time, each time you do it. You'll probably go though that learning curve with each partner your climb (if they weigh more or less then your last partner you had to lower), and I'm sure the friction on each different pitch will be another variable that will change the tension you need to apply to the plate.

If you're going to lower this way, I suggest redirect the break side of the rope to a higher point (adding more friction), maybe even redirect it through a munter (I think that's what BD recommends). And consider adding a backup like an auto-block or klemheist. One of your hands will be pulling down on the plate.

Jake Jones wrote:Nowhere in this do you see the question; "Is guide mode good or bad?". The thread drift to drive a personal agenda in the forums is wildly out of control. Unfortunately, once it gets started and people start to contribute, it's hard to reverse. About 2 or 3 responses in this entire 4 pages have addressed the OP's questions.

Absolutely, and part of that 'agenda' is to attempt to get people to question the root assumptions in the face of unquestioned 'monkey-see/monkey-do' device adoption that is sold on the basis of convenience and 'safety'.

Jake Jones wrote:Nowhere in this do you see the question; "Is guide mode good or bad?". The thread drift to drive a personal agenda in the forums is wildly out of control. Unfortunately, once it gets started and people start to contribute, it's hard to reverse. About 2 or 3 responses in this entire 4 pages have addressed the OP's questions.

I agree wholeheartedly. As one of those guilty of participating in the thread hijack, I would urge you to delete any such non-relevant post in this thread.

JL

saxfiend wrote: I agree wholeheartedly. As one of those guilty of participating in the thread hijack, I would urge you to delete any such non-relevant post in this thread. JL

Yeah, let the ignorance of unquestioned assumptions prevail, but for sure do get that left/right part sorted out...

Healyje wrote: Yeah, let the ignorance of unquestioned assumptions prevail, but for sure do get that left/right part sorted out...

(thread drift continued)

Do you believe that anyone that uses guide mode/autoblock is ignorant? Isn't it possible people understand the benefits and drawbacks and conclude it's the best method for them? Just because someone does something differently than you doesn't necessarily make it "wrong," in this example.

Healyje is never wrong.

Healyje wrote: Yeah, let the ignorance of unquestioned assumptions prevail, but for sure do get that left/right part sorted out...

I propose we all pause for a moment of silence in honor of the thousands of grigri victims who've been dropped since this thread started.

JL