How do you set up your anchors?

Let's see some photos.

Seems like a lot of extra hardware there. What is the reason for all the chain? I would simply go with a quicklink and ring or simply two links on each bolt (1/2" on the bottom) for the most part unless there was some reason the bolts had to be unusually far apart or chain was needed to come down over an edge. At Rumney we have started to also use the stainless ramshorns (pigtails) on the bottom so people can just drop their rope in for lowering; one for each bolt. We are getting away from the quickclip type loweroffs that I never liked. I think they are just expensive, encourage people to TR through them and it seems like a lot of the gates end up not closing properly after a while.

For a granite area I have been developing (also in NH) that is a little further from the road, rather than glue-in bolts, I use 1/2" SS Powers 5 pc Bolts with Fixe SS double ring anchors on each.

Your setup seems really common in Red River Gorge in Kentucky. Chains and rap rings. Glue ins are becoming the norm there too. I would assume Hawaii has a lot of volcanic rock that's a little more brittle like sandstone and need the anchors to be a little farther apart and compression bolts may break the rock unlike the granite we have in NH. I would say for sport climbing enough chain should be added that 2 10cm quickdraws can have their bottom biners overlap at a reasonable angle, ideally 45* or so but that's just my opinion.

I do NOT recommend the 316 chain. There is aggressive SCC in Hawaii.

In Thailand and Portugal they have found that stainless rap rings and Mallion Rapide have broken due to SCC. While the Mallion Rapide were attached to the anchor bolts, in Thailand the rap rings were connected via rope and were hanging free in the air.

Notice that the Thai rap ring is still shiny from being polished by ropes but cracked. That's a bad combination because, at first glance, it looks good.

You can buy Ti Mallion Rapide domestically. Titan Climbing also sells them and Ti lowering rings, rams-horns, etc.

If you have the Tortuga-style Ti bolts as in the photo, just thread the rope through them! I used a micrometer on a 15-year old popular route in Cayman Brac and could not measure any wear on the anchor bolts. The surface was polished and you could see and feel that, but not measure it. Ti has significantly better wear characteristics than steel.

316 Maillon Rapide from Rui Rosado, Portugal. Granite sea cliffs

Thai lowering ring

20 kN wrote:Hawaii is a bit unique in how we rig our anchors.

Well it isn´t exactly unique to arrange the anchor so that the ring lies flat on the rock and jams the rope and/or wears it out. It´s just the rest of the world stopped doing it that way about 50 years ago.

^^^Don't know either of you guys but imo trashing a developer who puts a lot of time and effort to make climbing areas accessible and possible for us to enjoy seems needlessly mean. Cmon, I know this is the intraweb but I really think developers like 20kn deserve at little more respect than that If you've got a better idea just say it

I have to say Thanks! To 20kn my brother lives on the north shore and it's great to hear the wall is open again and that quality people are putting time into making it safe regardless of how many other experts chime in with a million better ways to do it. Many places in the SE use a similar set up like RRG. Good on ya will be out in October for some surf but great to know I can bring my gear and climb in that beautiful place. I'll shoot you a pm love to climb with the people who make it happen!

M Sprague wrote:Seems like a lot of extra hardware there. What is the reason for all the chain?

The main reason is because we have a lot of dihedrals here, and we typically place one bolt on each side of the dihedral so the anchor center lies in space as pictured below. It allows the rope to stay away from the rock as much as possible, reducing wear on the rope, and it provides a few other benefits.



The rock we do have is not brittle like sandstone. In fact, it has an extremely high compression strength, similar to granite and typically higher than limestone. However, the rock is very fragmented with cracks, which requires a bit longer chain to space the bolts away from cracks as much as possible (again, one on each side of the dihedral).

Here is another example. It's hard to see the anchor, but if you look above you can see the rope terminates in space, which is caused by the same placement style as show in the photo above:

Copper Dragon, 5.12a

As far as the ring in the center goes, when I said we are unique in how we rig our anchors, this is the reason why:

unrealhawaii.com/2010/06/mo…

We use a string system to set up TR anchors from the ground. The ring in the center allows a climber to pull his rope through the anchor easier than he could pull it through a shot of chain. While very unique and not common to other areas, this has been the standard here since well before I moved here.

Very convenient way of setting up a top rope. I would however be nervous about a climb there. Is there a walk off? When I set up a top rope anchor, I can hike to the top and inspect the bolts and chains as I build. Or I can lead a route, which enables me to inspect the bolts and anchors as I ascend. Either way I am able to see everything I'm attaching myself to. The way it's set up at your crag doesn't seem to give you the chance to know what your tied too. Do anchors rust quicker there due to the salty air? Are any of the routes sport bolted? Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Medic741 wrote:^^^Don't know either of you guys but imo trashing a developer who puts a lot of time and effort to make climbing areas accessible and possible for us to enjoy seems needlessly mean. Cmon, I know this is the intraweb but I really think developers like 20kn deserve at little more respect than that If you've got a better idea just say it

Sayar and myself have corresponded for a fair few years now,I doubt he´s particularly going to be upset. Anyway being mean to him is an internet tradition.

As he´s now explained the chains are spanning a corner then the rings are perfectly alright but one wouldn´t want the general climbing population to think that was normally the correct way would we?

Back on topic, I am curious about my initial response. Climbing in Hawaii is very appealing to me. Not being able to inspect my anchors is not. How do island climbers deal with this?

JoeGaribay wrote:Back on topic, I am curious about my initial response. Climbing in Hawaii is very appealing to me. Not being able to inspect my anchors is not. How do island climbers deal with this?

This is climbing - get used to it. Unless you are toproping only, you never get to inspect your anchor before you get to it. If the anchor looks bad when you get to it, leave some of your gear or stayed clipped in to a bolt or two as you lower off for a back up. No different than climbing anywhere.

Andrew Gram wrote: This is climbing - get used to it. Unless you are toproping only, you never get to inspect your anchor before you get to it. If the anchor looks bad when you get to it, leave some of your gear or stayed clipped in to a bolt or two as you lower off for a back up. No different than climbing anywhere.

Oh I get it, andrew. I understand about bailing out. Excuse me if I wasn't clear. My interest isn't about top roping in general. I personally don't love it. I was more curious about the area the OP had mentioned. How they use string to thread the top rope through rings. How would you know the condition of this set up before you got up there? (When there are no bolts to bail from)
I think my question is just. Anyone else out there think I need to suck it up and get used to it?

JoeGaribay wrote: Oh I get it, andrew. I understand about bailing out. Excuse me if I wasn't clear. My interest isn't about top roping in general. I personally don't love it. I was more curious about the area the OP had mentioned. How they use string to thread the top rope through rings. How would you know the condition of this set up before you got up there? (When there are no bolts to bail from) I think my question is just. Anyone else out there think I need to suck it up and get used to it?

I think this is a legitimate concern. If I lived there, or knew the person that maintained the anchors, I would probably be more confident in the anchors. Not that there's any other option to trusting them, other than not climbing on them. (not sure if you can lead the routes on gear, as another option)

FrankPS wrote: I think this is a legitimate concern. If I lived there, or knew the person that maintained the anchors, I would probably be more confident in the anchors. Not that there's any other option to trusting them, other than not climbing on them.

Thanks for the mutual feeling. When an administrator tells me to get use to it, I thought to myself that perhaps I'm asking too many questions. I'm thinking andrew possibly didn't open the link. As an experienced climber, I believe he would understand what I meant if he went back and read the entire post. I would love to one day go climb such a beautiful place and talk to a local that would give me beta on conditions of the anchors and rings. Who wouldn't enjoy setting a top rope so quickly and efficiently?

JoeGaribay wrote: How do island climbers deal with this?

I climb at the crag every week unless I am on a climbing trip and I always give a quick inspection to the anchor components when I am up there, as do a few other climbers here. Ultimately, if you do not trust rigging the anchor from the ground, you're welcome to simply lead the route (which I always encourage anyway). Nearly all of our routes are bolted and the ones that are not take gear.

As far as the string goes, in the link I posted earlier there are photos showing how to attach it to the rope.

20Kn, you don't find all the string etc. hanging off the cliff kind of ugly? Are the routes super dangerously bolted to lead or something to make it so discouraging to lead to get the rope up? I would think in such a place that people would want a little lower visual climber impact.

M Sprague wrote:20Kn, you don't find all the string etc. hanging off the cliff kind of ugly? Are the routes super dangerously bolted to lead or something to make it so discouraging to lead to get the rope up? I would think in such a place that people would want a little lower visual climber impact.

I do find it a bit ugly, although I supposed I have been climbing there long enough that it does not really have an effect on me anymore. It is not dangerous to lead here. We use beefy titanium glue-in bolts, and for the most part the bolts are spaced reasonably. I whip on routes here all the time.

It's not really my call with regard to the string system. That's how it's been done since well before I got here. Nearly all of our routes here can be lead safely, but many still choose to TR them. I guess it's hard to get into the habit of leading everything when you can set up a TR from the ground in three minutes. I typically lead most of the routes in Hawaii simply because I climb on the States so often that I am used to leading anyway.

This is a subject that has come up repeatedly. On one hand, it's nice to TR the routes effortlessly from the ground, and it's really nice for me as a developer in that I can replace bolts, anchors, ect. without a partner.

However, on the other hand, I notice an abnormally large tread in climbers who never expand past TR. They can TR 5.12a here, but would probably have trouble onsighting 5.10 elsewhere. The normal path I see is that climbers TR a project, then when they know all of the moves they redpoint it. Then they move onto TRing another project, rinse and repeat.

The problem with that method is that the only experience the climber gathers on lead is experience on a route that climber already knows the moves on. So when some of these climbers migrate to the States on a trip, leading is almost an entirely new sport as now they have to onsight instead of redpoint. Therefore, I have argued that the string system creates a weaker climber as it allows people to only climb within their comfort zone.

But at the end, climbers are welcome to do whatever they feel is fun. No one has to onsight hard stuff; they can TR all day if that's what they would like to do. It's entirely up to them. I am simply pointing out that while it seems like learning how to climb in an environment where everything can be TRed easily is a good thing, it can in fact limit your ability to progress quite greatly. But if you have no interest in progressing, then it's not a problem in the first place I supposed.

20kN, thanks for the information and explanation of the area. Helpful.

Awesome. I like to lead so itts good to know its available there. Equally nice to know that if I want to try a hard 12 that I can TR it there as well

M Sprague wrote: At Rumney we have started to also use the stainless ramshorns .

Where are you buying the SS ramshorns?