Belaying Second in Guide mode - right or left?

So, I was just watching a few videos on direct belays using an ATC Guide/Reverso, and noticed something: half of the climbers seemed to have the system rigged "backwards." Or, at least, the exact reverse of what people were doing in other videos, both examples coming from trained professionals. What I'm referring to is the orientation of the plastic loop and, by extension, direction that you feed the bight of rope (left or right). I've never really thought about it, as I've always done this probably however I was first taught to do it, but now I'm curious. Is it a left-hand/right hand thing? Regional differences? I can't see a reason why manufacturer would make a difference (the Guide and Reverso are essentially the same design)...Based upon the demonstrations, both methods seem to be equally sound (the climber's rope is obvious always on the tope), but it is weirding me out for some reason. How do you guys setup your direct belays? Do you have a particular reason for feeding it to the right or to the left?

Plastic loop facing left:
vimeo.com/33940152
vimeo.com/22320202 (from BD)

Plastic loop facing right:
climbing.com/video/video-be…

youtube.com/watch?v=-Ij9Es5…

They're the same as I'm sure you realize. I don't pay much attention to which way I do it, though if the route traverses near the belay I might make sure to orient it accordingly. If I had to choose one way I think I'd probably set it up with the rope entering from the right, so that I can pull up slack with my right hand (dominant) and pull down with my left hand.

Yeah...I mean, rotate the knot and it'll end up on the other side...probably why I hadn't noticed before, but I do find I actually normally feed it with the plastic facing to the right and rope feeding from the left...maybe because it feels more like a normal toprope belay?

Twice over the years I've arrived at a belay to find I was being belayed in 'guide mode' off the anchor which explained why the belay sucked so badly. Almost can't put into words how suck and ill-considered this is a practice in trad climbing, particularly on anything serious.

Please explain to me why it's a bad practice to belay a second off of the anchor.

Healyje wrote:Twice over the years I've arrived at a belay to find I was being belayed in 'guide mode' off the anchor which explained why the belay sucked so badly. Almost can't put into words how suck and ill-considered this is a practice in trad climbing, particularly on anything serious.

I really don't know how it is "ill considered" and why your belay sucked, but I've been belayed hundreds of times on trad climbs in guide mode and it was fine. I suspect it's a problem with your belayer, not the setup. Belaying a follower in guide mode is not the problem.

Healyje wrote: Almost can't put into words how suck and ill-considered this is a practice in trad climbing, particularly on anything serious.

funny. That's been standard practice anywhere I've ever climbed. Perhaps I don't climb "anything serious".

Stagg54 wrote: funny. That's been standard practice anywhere I've ever climbed. Perhaps I don't climb "anything serious".

Don't doubt it for a minute.

Jeremy Riesberg wrote:Please explain to me why it's a bad practice to belay a second off of the anchor.

Well, for one, you have way more faith in anchors (built or bolted and I've replaced about 74 bolted anchors and in 54 out of 74 both bolts were spinners. One anchor bolt broke just under the weight of the breaker bar while I was adjusting my leash).

Second, it's a matter of feel and paying attention.

Third, it pretty much means people are hanging if they can't get up something as opposed to downclimbing to a stance and climbing back up to try it again. Cool, it's what's done these days, but isn't my thing or that of folks I climb with.

FrankPS wrote: I really don't know how it is "ill considered" and why your belay sucked, but I've been belayed hundreds of times on trad climbs in guide mode and it was fine. I suspect it's a problem with your belayer, not the setup. Belaying a follower in guide mode is not the problem.

Both climbers were way experience folks who make the rounds through the Valley, IC, Squamish, Mt. Hooker, etc. It just breeds inattention to the finer details of belaying a second, particularly one following a serious line or hard / FA.

Christopher Gibson wrote:Healyje may be referring to the use of the ATC at all for belaying the second off the anchor. There are other methods which are easier, faster and also considered standard.

No, I'm actually just talking about belaying off anchors at all. I just consider it a slovenly habit and am not at all surprised at how fast its spread.

Wait, what's the problem with belaying a second off the anchor with a Petzl reverso type device properly set up in guide mode? Isn't that the entire point of guide mode?

Chris NH wrote:Wait, what's the problem with belaying a second off the anchor with a Petzl reverso type device properly set up in guide mode? Isn't that the entire point of guide mode?

It is, if I thought guide mode itself had a valid point beyond laziness and incompetent belayers.

Healyje wrote: Don't doubt it for a minute. Well, for one, you have way more faith in anchors (built or bolted and I've replaced about 74 bolted anchors and in 54 out of 74 both bolts were spinners. One anchor bolt broke just under the weight of the breaker bar while I was adjusting my leash)

If you don't trust the anchors you're using, that's a whole 'nother problem.

Edit: How do you deal with your lack of faith in bolted anchors when you rap off of them?

Naw bro, f guide mode. I prefer to have most of my belays set up on one small nut and the rope thru a biner. Weight vs. safety in my opinion.

DavisMeschke wrote:Weight vs. safety in my opinion.

Yah, and when folks default to guide mode it immediately makes me suspect about safety in most other aspects of climbing. And if you think guide mode somehow equates to safety or safer than I lament for the future.

You can still feel the climber well if you "pay attention". And not be lazy...
And... you have already escaped the belay if this became necessary...

The first video you posted is probably the best instructional video I have found on how to climb multipitch. Love it! Just showed it to my girlfriend the other night, actually.

Healyje wrote: Don't doubt it for a minute. Well, for one, you have way more faith in anchors (built or bolted and I've replaced about 74 bolted anchors and in 54 out of 74 both bolts were spinners. One anchor bolt broke just under the weight of the breaker bar while I was adjusting my leash). Second, it's a matter of feel and paying attention. Third, it pretty much means people are hanging if they can't get up something as opposed to downclimbing to a stance and climbing back up to try it again. Cool, it's what's done these days, but isn't my thing or that of folks I climb with. Both climbers were way experience folks who make the rounds through the Valley, IC, Squamish, Mt. Hooker, etc. It just breeds inattention to the finer details of belaying a second, particularly one following a serious line or hard / FA. No, I'm actually just talking about belaying off anchors at all. I just consider it a slovenly habit and am not at all surprised at how fast its spread.

So exactly what do you do to belay your second? You dont trust anchors and you dont trust guide mode...so how exactly do you bring up your second? And what do you tie into to keep yourself safe? I dont think guide mode= laziness anymore than using a gri does. No matter what, you gotta pay attention to every system you build and encounter.

Belaying in guide mode actually puts less force on the anchor as opposed to redirecting the rope through the anchor with the belay device on the harness. Of course other benefits include escaping the belay becomes easy, and safety margin for rock or ice fall from above. If it is a truly sketchy anchor, belay off your harness with no redirect on the anchor and use your stance to hold your second should they fall in an attempt to not load your sketchy anchor.

The ATC and reverso do have a difference, the orientation of the loop that you connect to the anchors. That may be what you are seeing...

That makes the ATC and reverso sit at different angles. I prefer the ATC for this reason.

Doing a redirect from the anchors to your harness makes a pulley effect putting more force on the anchors, correct? Much of the force is then absorbed in the dynamics of the belay, so is there really any measurable difference in force at all?

An answer for the OP.

I base my decision of which direction to point my belay device in guide mode on which side of me my second in going to approach.

For example, if the pitch I just led traverses into the belay from the right I will set up the belay device to pull rope from that direction. Another more common example for me is belaying in a dihedral. Let's say it's a right facing dihedral. Unless there are face holds leading out to your right, the second will be approaching the belay on your left so you will want to orient your device to pull rope from that side. If you don't you will either have to deal with a rope cluster or flip the rope over you head as your second approaches effectively pointing your device in that direction in the end. The rope cluster that failing to do this will cause is very evident if and when your second begins leading the next pitch.

I know it seems like a small issue but rope clusters are the biggest loss of time while multipitch climbing with a storm bearing down or angry people following you.

christoph benells wrote: Doing a redirect from the anchors to your harness makes a pulley effect putting more force on the anchors, correct? Much of the force is then absorbed in the dynamics of the belay, so is there really any measurable difference in force at all?

Redirected belay from the anchor to harness puts 2-1 force on the anchor. Belaying directly off the anchor in guide mode is a 1-1 force on the anchor. You can argue how much force is absorbed by the belayer being pulled into the anchor on a redirected belay, but that would be hard to measure with any consistency.

Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah...I mean, rotate the knot and it'll end up on the other side...probably why I hadn't noticed before, but I do find I actually normally feed it with the plastic facing to the right and rope feeding from the left...maybe because it feels more like a normal toprope belay?

By "feels more like a normal toprope belay", do you mean that you're using your hands in the same way as you would for toprope belay (your "usual" hand on the brake, for example)?

If so, that's a limitation. Learn to use both hands for different purposes, so that you can switch according to the situation.

Set up the anchor and belay in the best configuration for the conditions, looking out for stuff getting tangled, biner gates or ropes being pressed against the rock in inconvenient or dangerous ways, rope crossing over rope or slings etc. And yeah, if the second is going to come up to your left, you'd usually point the plastic loop to the right, and vice-versa.