New bolts at Crow Hill

I hope at some point, that the WMCC becomes the MCC but it may take some of us easterners (yes, I'm looking in the mirror) to get involved to make that happen...

Healyje wrote: I'll be the first to bow out when that happens. As it is, most of the new crowd [that even trad climbs] won't go up on serious trad routes.

Exactly.

Jonathan Haggerty wrote:Clearly we are missing something bigger than this single debate can figure out. There is no community consensus. There aren't people maintaining the fixed gear. We are isolated between boston proper and wmcc. Should CH fall under the wmcc umbrella? Should we be talking about our own eastern ma cc? Mountain project is not a forum for a positive outcome.

Joe M. wrote:I hope at some point, that the WMCC becomes the MCC but it may take some of us easterners (yes, I'm looking in the mirror) to get involved to make that happen...

This right here is what y'all need to be discussing. And, MP may or may not be the best place to air it, but I believe things like this deserve feedback. I am unfamiliar with the local Orgs and their relationships to the area, "community", Access Fund, etc. But, if your local "Access/Stewardship Organization" is falling short, do something about it.

If your Crow Hill-type crags are to be managed "sustain-ably", it's gonna take isolated groups of people who CAN focus on the area, maintain fixed gear as per the local ethos, and quell silliness. Eric says above that it's not a new thing and that it's weird throughout the NE. Y'all better get a grip before the hordes overtake and anything resembling logic/respect/tradition/naturalism goes out the window.

Ken Nichols wrote:Thy are GONE!

I don't have a dog in this particular fight but was this at least done in a clean manner and the rock repaired, or were the bolts just hammered apart?

After struggling to figure out how to reset my lost password I am now able to join in on this discussion, answer a question Mark asked yesterday, and throw in a complication.

First, my recollection (confirmed in the guidebook) is that even when it was an aid climb as Fisherman's Wall bolts came and went---with much the same "unsafe" arguments as now. I think the grade varied between A5 (as then defined=death fall)and A3 depending on the presence of bolts. I doubt if the route was ever repeated in it's A5 state.

According to Steve Angelini--who seconded Mallery's FFA, it was not well protected, only a few bolts, with maybe some additional gear (Steve admits that his memory isn't great on this). It has never been known who chopped the route. Interestingly the route and a near neighbor--both FAs by the same person-- present interesting examples of the "First Ascent Principle"---no bolts on the aid FA of Fisherman's--so subsequent bolts were chopped but bolts on the FA of Fool on a Hill--and they remain.

Of course an FFA is a different matter and there is plenty of precedent (I am a lawyer!!!) for adding bolts to protect a free ascent of former hard aid routes.However I do think it is appropriate to preserve the general character of a crag, that the active local climbing community (often indeed largely made up of "old fogies") as well as history--both maybe somewhat hard but not impossible to identify--should be the ones who 'decide'. So while a general believer in the FA Principle, so sympathetic to Mark's argument, given Dune's later history and the effort made by those who have done it sans bolts, I think it should remain bolt free.

But I'd like to mention a more complicated 'case'. During Tim Kemple Jr. and Pete Vintinov's 'spree' at Crow--in addition to the trad Dune and Absolut, they free climbed a route called "It Doesn't Matter" up the headwall above where Cro-Mag traverses off left. This had also been an ancient, forgotten aid line climbed mostly on bolts and rivets. On their climb Tim and Pete mostly (totally?) used tied-off rusty rivets and maybe an equally decrepit old hanger or 2 for "protection". This can't be called a sport route (or variation, I guess) but it surely isn't trad either. So what happens when the rivets and bolts on this rust away totally? Can they be replaced? By what? Not that the route ever gets done anyway, but just another illustration that it is hard to be 'cut and dried' about such things. Alan

Freeing existing aid lines is a different deal altogether. How often is it climbed on aid?

Such routes can be and often are considered local 'training' lines for those with big wall ambitions. But if it has been freed and no one really aids it any more than I'd again typically be alright with adding fixed pro such that it still stays a bold endeavor, but one this side of dying.

Crow Hill has had a no (additional) bolt ethic for over twenty years. Likely longer than that but I can't speak beyond that period. It has been respected until recently.

If the bolts recently put in are not removed I and others believe that it will open the flood gates to bolting. The tradition of Crow Hill as a trad crag where many, many climbers have come to learn and sharpened their trad skills will be lost forever.

The bolters are apparently a group of 5 or 6 men in their mid-20's. My friend indicated that he had never seen them at Crow before and didn't recognize them as frequenting the Worcester CRG. He indicated to them that the bolting really wasn't consistent with local ethic and they blew him off. He believes they were the subjects in the video Dana has shared

I suspect I ran into the same group last year, or it may have been the year before, working Dune pretty intensively on top rope. I had spotted chalk on the route for a week or so prior. I did not recognize them as frequenting Crow and I am there a lot. Nor did I recognize them from Watertown or Worcester CRGs. Although I hit the gym very early in the mornings and may not have overlapped with them.

Two weekends ago I ran into I ran into three of their friends at Crow. It was two guys and a girl. It seemed the girl was there, ironically enough, to practice her trad leading. I over heard the mention of the bolting while I was pulling a top rope on Intertwine to the side to allow her to lead it. I told the gentlemen that the local consensus was that the bolting was lame and they ought to be removed. We mutually left it there. I had not seen them at Crow Hill before nor had the two people I was climbing with and the other 9 people I know that were there that day. These people knew none of us. They were not familiar with Crow and I had the opportunity to suggest some appropriate routes for the young lady to lead and share key gear beta.

The bolts are still there as of Wednesday morning. There has been no chalk on the route for weeks. The bolters may not have been back since they bolted. This indicates to me they are not local. Otherwise one has to assume they would have been out working the route.

Regarding community, not sure how to define it, but like every crag we have a community. Several dozens of people that climb there on a regular basis. Some of us year round. Weekend cragging, organized afterwork sessions and weekday climbing for those with flexible schedules all get done. We may not have a charter, board meetings or Access Fund affiliation but pins get replaced or reset. Webbing gets changed out. Anchor bolts on the practice face get reset and reglued. Cracks get cleaned out and routes get cleaned. The ramp on Tarzan is now free of poison ivy after campaign of 3 or 4 years.

To best of my knowledge the bolters did not inquire to what constituted the community at Crow or attempted to reach out to anyone in the community to discuss their bolting plans.

To the bolters, please remove your bolts and repair the holes appropriately. This would affirm the right of climbing communities in whatever form they take at every crag to set local ethics and ask that they be respected.

Thanks Al for chiming in. Your post put to paper thoughts I have had in my head but was unable to express coherently like you just did. I had not heard about "It Doesn't Matter" before your post. In this case, since it had FA'ed perhaps only allow 1:1 replacement/update of fixed gear used in the FA? Tough question indeed and not clear cut as you mentioned!

losbill wrote:...If the bolts recently put in are not removed I and others believe that it will open the flood gates to bolting. ..

What makes you think that? Granted, if the bolters were in the video, the sketchyness while climbing an r/x headpoint, the annoyingly inane encouragements and lack of sense to not make a commotion with your dog while somebody is on the line makes me question their judgment a little bit. Are you worried about this particular group or in general? I think most who are open to the bolts being replaced and maybe some pin/tat anchors upgraded don't feel that would change the character of the crag from essentially a trad one, or support sportifying it.

losbill wrote:To the bolters, please remove your bolts and repair the holes appropriately.

I think it makes a stronger statement if you guys just go ahead and do it now. Don't allow this stuff to start. Make an example. Document it. Post it at the gym, trailhead, online, wherever.

Thanks Alan. In the case of "It Doesn't Matter" I would look at it a little differently than Dune. Pete and Tim, by re-using the old rotting gear, obviously weren't intending to put up a reasonably safe route that would stick around for others. If the crag is intended by the majority of its users to be trad, I would think leaving it as a TR would be appropriate (or solo if you really wanted to try to one-up them)

On a crag that has seen lots of fixed aid bolts, rivets, pins and a few bolts for protecting free climbs, I just don't see how the few on Dune is changing the character of the crag or opening any floodgates.

I'll leave it at that, as I don't particularly have a bone in the argument more than an interest in people figuring out how to dissolve conflicts that don't really have to be there. The end result is usually better for everybody.

UncleBen wrote: I think it makes a stronger statement if you guys just go ahead and do it now. Don't allow this stuff to start. Make an example. Document it. Post it at the gym, trailhead, online, wherever.

^well almost.
I disagree. Without trying to resolve it you just and up with a cycle of people getting pissed off and rebolting to make a statement, chopping to do the same etc. The act of being dissed and wanting retribution ends up taking over the original issue. Getting away from the main issue is weaker.

losbill wrote:...If the bolts recently put in are not removed I and others believe that it will open the flood gates to bolting.

M Sprague wrote: What makes you think that? Granted, if the bolters were in the video, the sketchyness while climbing an r/x headpoint, the annoyingly inane encouragements and lack of sense to not make a commotion with your dog while somebody is on the line makes me question their judgment a little bit. Are you worried about this particular group or in general? I think most who are open to the bolts being replaced and maybe some pin/tat anchors upgraded don't feel that would change the character of the crag from essentially a trad one, or support sportifying it.

Seriously? You must a been living pretty cloistered life the last twenty years or weren't climbing.

Those floodgates have been on hair triggers around the country for some time. If it were all about careful measured thinking and folks understanding others' intentions clearly it would be no problem in most cases. However, that's not the case and I've seen the judicious cleaning of a route mistaken by others for a license to clearcut and snowshovel the moss off an entire face. I've similarly seen considered anchor and pin upgrades totally mistaken for 'the floodgate is now wide open'.

Do not underestimate the lack of understanding or consideration when someone already has mission/vision in the back of their mind and are just waiting and looking for an opening.

M Sprague wrote: ^well almost. I disagree. Without trying to resolve it you just and up with a cycle of people getting pissed off and rebolting to make a statement, chopping to do the same etc. The act of being dissed and wanting retribution ends up taking over the original issue. Getting away from the main issue is weaker.

I hear you, but I believe all the "talking" I have observed in climbing circles (AF, other orgs, online) about these topics gets nowhere fast. Concurrent with what I say above about the need for dedicated and present observation/management, with the proper perspective being communicated, I believe you can accomplish both things even when chopping. It doesn't have to be a "diss" if someone fixes something someone does that is not fitting with the crag.

If you have people who represent the authority of the locals and demand respect for these little historical crags, if they go and chop something that is clearly wrong and adequately explain the reason, any butthurt that remains on the "other side of the fence" is simply collateral damage.

EDITED TO ADD: What Mr. Healy said.

Crow Hill is not some New Mexico/Arizona shit hole. It is a well established historical climbing area with lots of experienced locals keeping an eye on it. It doesn't need fanaticism to protect it. I think the constructive part of this whole discussion has been to work towards a coherent crag identity for the place that most can get behind.

UncleBen wrote: with the proper perspective being communicated

And who decides what the 'proper' perspective is? It seems to me the entire disagreement centers around whether we are privileging certain perspectives over others for arbitrary reasons.

On another note, to insinuate that M Sprague doesn't share your perspective because he simply hasn't been climbing enough is a bit absurd. His work to make climbing more accessible may depart from your own ideas about what the sport should be, but there are many of us who appreciate his approach.

Urr, I didn't condemn M Sprague... Just to be clear.

Of course not, I apologize if it wasn't clear; I was responding to both you and Healyje. And condemn would be far too strong a word in any case.

No worries.

Seriously though, that 3 pin anchor halfway up Jane is lame.
I'll be psyched if someone pulls that POS....

This conversation needs to be had to hammer out what exactly are the "consensus" opinions about CH. On this one issue of bolting Dune back to it's FFA condition, we can see that there isn't a clear cut answer. I'll throw my 1 cent's worth (not even worth 2), and say that the FFA was done on bolts, the FFAer wants to see it with bolts, and unless we hear a more compelling case as to why it was chopped in the first place, then those ethics should be respected (conversely, if the FFA was done on gear, the FFAer wants to keep it that way, then a gear climb it is).

There is some shared consensus about Crow Hill that everyone can agree to; it's primarily a trad area that nobody wants grid bolted and should be preserved as such. Also, some fixed gear has been placed and considered acceptable for a variety of reasons. Everything else is grey and in the middle. Chopping or re-bolting it again doesn't do a whole lot unless the community can come up with a plan for the future. MP is not the best place for this, but hopefully this can spark a real conversation working to a common goal for the area.

MSprague is right in that chopping without coming up with a plan moving forward is not productive and will only rile people up. There is common ground between the bolters and the ones who take issue with it. Now we just need to find and define those shared beliefs.