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New bolts at Crow Hill

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
john strand wrote:You mean I was confusing them all along ??? I could see John in tweeds though, but never on Everest.
You are not alone, John. I see JCM's name spelled with an 'o' a lot, even in climbing books. Assuming it is the same person , and it looks like it, according to
this and a bunch of other sites he spells it with an 'e'. Looks diferent than at the crag in his red tights and mustache :)))

Eric, how come Arsenault's bolting was tolerated? It predates Dune.
chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590
Ken Nichols wrote:Thy are GONE!
Ya'll seem to have overlooked this.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
chris magness wrote: Ya'll seem to have overlooked this.
To be coherent, imo, they should have removed all the fixed gear. Coherence is rarely followed in bolt wars though.
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Luc wrote: In that case why not bolt every single run-out route in all of the USA. You start pondering doing a route on Poke-O and the run-outs look spooky, just bolt the crap out of it, great mentality. Where do you stop? At least the route in question here is accessible to top-rope, why would it then be ok to bolt it and not all the multi-pitch routes in the Dacks and NH? Gym gumbies don't know how to protect a crack, "Bolt it. Make it safe enough", then everyone will be able to climb it. No rules, right?
Are you calling the FA of Dune a gym gumby because he bolted it because he didn't know how to protect it? Because that is what he did...
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Red, I have no clue how you managed to extract that from what I wrote.
I'm talking and exagerating about people that feel ethics have no place in climbing and that making a route "safer" by retro-bolting is acceptable for the greater good.

mattyo Yo · · Boston, Massachusetts · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 5

Now it's become a "you are a weak ass gumby who is afraid to climb a route with runouts" sort of discussion. Super awesome.

Am I afraid of runouts? Damn straight. Do I think bolts should be placed everywhere to prevent them? No, that's ridiculous. However, the FA on this route shows that it simply isn't a trad line. It just happens to be at a "trad area." Wtf does that mean anyway? Is Cathedral a "trad area?" What about the bolts and pins all over that?

Ethics are one thing, common sense is another. There is no trad route there, it's a damned mixed line or it's nothing at all. Just because it can be led on gear after you've practiced the moves a few dozen times on top rope doesn't make it a trad line.

What's most concerning is that Ken Nichols came on this thread, coyly stated that the bolts were chopped (without admitting who did it to avoid prosecution) and no one here said a damn thing to condemn him. He's vilified all over these forums but apparently this time, he's the hero. Nice work.

Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335
mattyo wrote:Now it's become a "you are a weak ass gumby who is afraid to climb a route with runouts" sort of discussion. Super awesome. Am I afraid of runouts? Damn straight. Do I think bolts should be placed everywhere to prevent them? No, that's ridiculous. However, the FA on this route shows that it simply isn't a trad line. It just happens to be at a "trad area." Wtf does that mean anyway? Is Cathedral a "trad area?" What about the bolts and pins all over that? Ethics are one thing, common sense is another. There is no trad route there, it's a damned mixed line or it's nothing at all. Just because it can be led on gear after you've practiced the moves a few dozen times on top rope doesn't make it a trad line. What's most concerning is that Ken Nichols came on this thread, coyly stated that the bolts were chopped (without admitting who did it to avoid prosecution) and no one here said a damn thing to condemn him. He's vilified all over these forums but apparently this time, he's the hero. Nice work.
>=O
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
M Sprague wrote: Eric, how come Arsenault's bolting was tolerated? It predates Dune.
Beats me. I think he only had to contend with(actual) dinosaurs...
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
mattyo wrote:Wtf does that mean anyway?
There's your first problem.

mattyo wrote:Ethics are one thing, common sense is another.
There's your second problem.

mattyo wrote: What's most concerning is that Ken Nichols came on this thread, coyly stated that the bolts were chopped (without admitting who did it to avoid prosecution) and no one here said a damn thing to condemn him. He's vilified all over these forums but apparently this time, he's the hero. Nice work.
And three strikes you're out. That isn't Chris Sharma Jr. or Ken Nichols - those are anonymous one-post trolls.
mattyo Yo · · Boston, Massachusetts · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 5
Healyje wrote: There's your first problem. There's your second problem. And three strikes you're out. That isn't Chris Sharma Jr. or Ken Nichols - those are anonymous one-post trolls.
Hey ump, what the hell kind of strike zone you calling? I just want a good route to get some traffic without any casualties. By my count, I'm still at bat. I may have fouled a couple off but I'm still in there.

As for the third point, shame on me if I was duped. I don't forum very much and given the personalities who have been on this thread, you can excuse my naivete. It's like a ken burns documentary up in here.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
mattyo wrote:I just want a good route to get some traffic without any casualties.
You keep swinging, I'll grant you that.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
mattyo wrote:Hi Reggie, I believe the route was first done as a sport route. Is a trad route still "pure" if it has to be practiced on top rope before an attempt is made on gear?
Wait, what? TR is now "sport" climbing?
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

If you're top roping, you can't really fall, if you can't fall, is it really climbing?

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
JoeGaribay wrote:If you're top roping, you can't really fall, if you can't fall, is it really climbing?
If you're top roping on an overhung face you can't dog, it's either climb or fly, If you can't dog up it, is it really climbing?
ClimbLikeAGirl · · Keene Valley · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 15
JoeGaribay wrote:If you're top roping, you can't really fall, if you can't fall, is it really climbing?
If a climber falls in the woods and no one is around to hear their screams, does it still count for being done 'in style'?
Reggie Pawle · · Boston, MA · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5
mattyo wrote:However, the FA on this route shows that it simply isn't a trad line. It just happens to be at a "trad area." Wtf does that mean anyway? Is Cathedral a "trad area?" What about the bolts and pins all over that?
It's kind of grey, but I think the distinction of areas as trad areas or sport areas (or somewhere in the middle, like Cathedral) is important. It really comes down to the community of people who climb there regularly, and what standards are accepted at their area. I think it's fair to say that the community at areas like the the Gunks, El Dorado Canyon, Whiteside, and so on, would not tolerate a new route being put up via rap-bolting. Hence it's fair to call those places trad areas.

That's why I don't think it's strictly the case that since Mallery bolted it for the FA, it should be preserved in that state. To me, the ingrained ethics of an area take precedence. Crow Hill has a pretty cool tradition; a lot of the Northeast's strongest climbers cut their teeth there, in particular honing their mental toughness. Who knows if Kemple would have put up Absolute if the cliff had been freely bolted? And who knows what we'd be depriving future generations of if we don't preserve trad areas?

With respect to the first bolt on Cro-Magnon, and the pins and bolts that appear on Cathedral, I think it's also fair to say that sometimes bolts are put in on trad routes to make them safe. Clipping that bolt on Cro-Mag isn't even safe; according to Stewart Green's guidebook, legs have been broken there. Again, a grey area. But I think the distinction between a route bolted as a sport route is clear from a trad route with some fixed protection on it.

There's already tons of awesome sport climbing within throwing distance of Crow Hill, and Crow Hill is so small. I don't really see why it can't be preserved as a trad area.
Eric8 · · Maynard, MA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 310
Reggie Pawle wrote: With respect to the first bolt on Cro-Magnon, and the pins and bolts that appear on Cathedral, I think it's also fair to say that sometimes bolts are put in on trad routes to make them safe. Clipping that bolt on Cro-Mag isn't even safe; according to Stewart Green's guidebook, legs have been broken there. Again, a grey area. But I think the distinction between a route bolted as a sport route is clear from a trad route with some fixed protection on it. There's already tons of awesome sport climbing within throwing distance of Crow Hill, and Crow Hill is so small. I don't really see why it can't be preserved as a trad area.
There is a cam placement a couple feet below that bolt on Cro-mag, you would either have to skip it or have a very bad belay to get hurt there.

The way Dune was recently bolted does not make it a sport route. The potential to take a large fall on the upper face is exponentially higher than any fall you could take on Cro-mag. Which is why I find chopping the bolts on Dune and leaving bolt on Cro-mag really really ironic. And makes me think it is just people (with a few exceptions) who will never climb Dune but like using the bolt on Cro-mag dictating the ethics of a route they will never climb.
mattyo Yo · · Boston, Massachusetts · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 5

Reggie,
Thanks for the comment. I appreciate an actual reply instead of snark. I'm still not sure if your first post was tongue in cheek or not. You have a hell of a deadpan irl.

Anyway, I see the point and accept that the area has ethics and a very strong tradition. This route, however, has always been an exception to the rule given it's various FAs and gear challenges. It's a shame to me that it never gets any love as a result. I guess I should get out there and give it a try before the no hole in the wall gang comes by.

I'm done here. I'm gonna go watch vertical limit to unwind.

Dana Seaton · · Rhode Island · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 2,526

So, here is the route in question being led, with some pre hung gear. Granted he may have wanted doubles on this route, is is worth noting that only the fixed pins up high kept him alive and the 12c x crux down low is very serious. I am not sure why this route cannot exist as a mixed route, with a bolt on the crux low, and pins and gear for the rest. This respects the local ethics, where other routes that are done at CH have the odd bolt, pin or two, and the first ascensionist's vision and effort to free the line. It would be interesting to see how others besides myself who regularly climb at CH would feel about that? Eric, Bill etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=Gg7C5Ei…

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

If you're solid enough to get on that you should consider taking a ride on 'The Wizard'...

P.S. Just added it to the Fishermans Wall page in the route guide: The Wizard

P.P.S. Added a couple of more photos...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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