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new cams?

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

If indeed it is 10 years ... Then i suspect there wont be much resale value or a market for these cams used

You can still sell used cams for 20+ dollahs each even a decade old ... In fact quite a few folks are still looking for the last generation big grey camalot thats a decade old by now

A cam that last 10 years is more of a specialized piece IMO

Now is that 10 years reduced by constant usage ... Say replace the cams every 5 if you use em 100+ days a year? Even if they still appear in good condition after inspection?

;)

Larry · · SoAZ · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 50

I wish BD would make a size between 3 and 4. (The size of a 4 Friend.) The last change in the size range makes the new 4 Camalot too big to lug for days on end. Even if it's 25% less.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
bearbreeder wrote:If indeed it is 10 years ... Then i suspect there wont be much resale value or a market for these cams used You can still sell used cams for 20+ dollahs each even a decade old ... In fact quite a few folks are still looking for the last generation big grey camalot thats a decade old by now A cam that last 10 years is more of a specialized piece IMO Now is that 10 years reduced by constant usage ... Say replace the cams every 5 if you use em 100+ days a year? Even if they still appear in good condition after inspection? ;)
The new cams are now a soft-good instead of a hard-good. I'm not sure how I feel about it.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Ray Pinpillage wrote: The new cams are now a soft-good instead of a hard-good. I'm not sure how I feel about it.
well ray we dont usually agree on too much here ... but i agree with you on this

no doubt the weight savings are very impressive for fast and light climbers ... and nothing to sneeze at

but for "regular" users a 10 year overall lifespan means you need to shell out something like 1200+ dollahs a decade to replace a double rack of cams ... perhaps sooner if its sees more than weekend warrior use?

now i have no doubt that there are plenty of folks with money and perhaps not too much experience will buy a shiney new double rack ... (plenty of experienced alpine climbers will buy em of course understanding the limitation)

i assume that like the BD slings that the cams will have date of manufacture tags on em? ... that way if the cam has been sitting at the back of a shop for a few years unsold, or if someone sells a used one .... then the buyer can see how much "life" the cam has left?

is there anyway for BD to extend the life through re-servicing the cams?

;)
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Maybe I'm different but I have only retired slings and ropes due to wear. I know manufacturers claim you should retire slings and ropes after ten years but I don't think testing has shown a correlation between age and strength.

I avoid used slings and rope so I doubt I'll buy a used UL C4 unless it is NOS. I have no doubt used prices of these cams will be uniquely low because of their construction.

Dr. Long Arm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 15

From: thealpinestart.com/2015/08/…

“The dyneema core is protected from abrasion by the stem and protected from UV by the thumb loop which has a UV protectant built into it. The main dyneema core is not replaceable. The dyneema slings are replaceable - as are all slings on BD cams."

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

Dyneema Is already more Uv resistant than nylon. I think when you combine Dyneema + UV resistant plastic around it UV and abrasion degradation will be a non issue.
The 2KN strength drop makes it unlikely that a .3 or smaller will appear.

RafalA · · Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 20

A short update on expected lifespan:

We have talked with BD about lifespan of the dyneema sling in the stem but they have still not finalized the wording yet. While the stem will provide UV and abrasion protection for the dyneema core there will still be a reduced lifespan. Once they finalize the wording we will let you know.

Basically, it will not be reduced in comparison to regular C4's. Once we have the Ok from BD I'll post exactly how many years they're talking about.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I can't find the post but i thought i read that dyneema after 3-5 years of use lowered their strength rating down to like 7-10 kN. I don't know with being in a protective case they would fare better but I have never wanted to use them due to it.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

I'm not too worried about the "lifespan" of these cams as I tend to wear out all gear long before it has reached the end of its shelf life. Besides, in 10 years there will undoubtedly be a brand new, better generation of camming devices. I'm sure I'll do enough climbing in the next ten years - climbing made that much more enjoyable by a lighter rack - to justify the purchase...

...that said, what concerns me more - without having seen or used these - is will the thumb loop or stem deform significantly (by that I mean will it be cracked, kinked, or otherwise damaged) when weighted (body weight or in a fall)? Without metal cable, is the only thing giving them their structure a bit of plastic tubing?

And Dow, I think it was cool how you name dropped Alex Honnold and then immediately followed up with a condescending attack on the inexperienced. Nice one!

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Rob T wrote:You are aware that these are to supplement, not replace the C4's, right? If you want a "forever cam" keep buying the cams you always have. Lighter equipment, in any sport, has never been the same price and same durability as the generation before, that's not how it works.
Actually id say that the current generation camalots are as durable and affordable as the original ones (the u stems had issues)

If you work out the price of a friend back when they came out vs one now after inflation ... Todays cams are better, at least as durable overall, and at least affordable

These are doubtless "specialty cams" .... However they will likely be marketed as more "general" cams being sold in places like REI by the bucketload

I know plenty of folks out there who buy a rack, barely use it and in a decade it still looks pretty new ... I suspect plenty of cams like that get sold or trades on MP and other such sites

It will be VERY interesting to see BDs guidelines for retirement of these suckers ... Whether heavy use will shorten that life even if it looks fine visually

Remember the new mastercams are coming out too which have reduced weight .... Itll be interesting to see a rack comparison in the relevant sizes between the two

;)
MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2

are they going to keep making the 'older' version of the C4s?

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
mattm wrote:While rough, crystalline rock, such as granite, will wear off the anodization with time it is neither quick nor uniform or wide spread. While likely not a big deal for the grippy rock out there, it still could be an issue with the polished and smooth. Totem discontinued anodization of their cam lobes as they were causing issues on slick rock such as limestone. I could see the same issue with smooth granite etc (I recall a video of a cam slipping out at Mt Lemmon?) Both WC and DMM appear to be addressing this shortcoming (granted a minor one) by engineering a better cam / rock interface not unlike the cams of old with smooth lobes. Best guess is they oversize the lobe, anodize and then mill it to final shape. I particularly like the effort WC put into why cams walk. We're at the point where there aren't too many revolutions in protection remaining ( Totem likely the last real shake up). Simply refinements in a system.
The best option to improve holding power in slick placements is to decrease the caming angle. That, however, has drawbacks as well.
runout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

nice video summary directly from reps from BD, DMM, WC.

youtube.com/watch?v=3BPRygJ…

KeithGDains · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 25

New friends..... I'm drooling. +1 for the vid

Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

Poor Metolius... getting lost in the crowd and forgotten...

Maybe those guys gotta hustle a bit more...

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Finally, a standardized color scheme across the sizes.

lozo bozo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 30
Khoi wrote:Poor Metolius... getting lost in the crowd and forgotten... Maybe those guys gotta hustle a bit more...
And how exactly are they 'lost and forgotten'?

i'd love to hear your answer
andrew thomas · · Orcas island · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 105
Jake Jones wrote:Metolius isn't a front runner (and I don't think their business plan is to compete in that way), but they do make damn good functional gear. I love just about everything they make, with a few exceptions. To say that they're lost and forgotten isn't really an accurate statement. They're just a small, American company that still does lots of their processes by hand. I like that.
+1
Andrew Mayer · · Driggs, ID · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 131

So it sounds like/appears the new Friends match BD sizing? (obviously color too).

That's an interesting move in my mind, since one of the big selling points of Friends was the in-between sizing with BD, which was huge at places like indian creek (and the primary reason I own a few helium friends).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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