Rappel rope caught at top. Strategies?

csproul wrote: I'm all for constructive advice, but sometimes people need to be bluntly told they're doing ridiculous things and that nOObs should stop teaching nOObs. And this is not meant to pick on the OP, just an observation in general. I think posters should try to remain polite (sometimes I fail at this) but I also don't want a site that coddles people either. People should be called out when they post things that are just flat out wrong. There is a rampant culture on this and other sites of nOObs posting shit like know what they're talking about and often giving incorrect and even potentially dangerous advice. These are the instances where being constructive doesn't always work.

I agree. I also dont think that being blunt and being constructive, contradict eachother. Also not suggesting coddling.

Brian Wiesner wrote:Ok so here's the story...Has anyone ever seen this happen?

Older Petzl catalogs (80s-90s) have drawings that warn against this*, but not the newer stuff (web included) Not sure why they stopped...maybe slab no longer hip?

• crossover rope trap on slab, not the hanger issue

Z.St.Jules wrote: I agree. I also dont think that being blunt and being constructive, contradict eachother. Also not suggesting coddling.

Agree.

Jake Jones wrote:do yourself (and your climbing community) a favor and buy a shitload of stainless steel quick links and get to work. Two links per hanger to keep your rope from twisting (or what Bob said and incorporate a short length of chain).

I've always liked the setup as shown in Super Fluke's picture, above, but I've never put any up myself.

Is there ever a reason to NOT install quick links, etc. on top of a route? If not, I think I'll put some at the top of some of the routes around here.

Does anyone have a link to more info on what kinds of hardware are and are not acceptable to use? For example, I would assume the quick links should be from a climbing store and rated in kN like anything else we'd climb with, however I don't think I've ever seen ones like that on the routes I've climbed. They are normally just hardware store ones (I assume cheaper) with no strength rating.

Any suggestions for good rap rings? The SMC Descending Ring on REI's website looks fine, but again its strength isn't rated, the use of which goes against everything I read in the Climbing Anchors books and whatnots.

Brian Wiesner wrote: I've always liked the setup as shown in Super Fluke's picture, above, but I've never put any up myself. Is there ever a reason to NOT install quick links, etc. on top of a route? If not, I think I'll put some at the top of some of the routes around here. Does anyone have a link to more info on what kinds of hardware are and are not acceptable to use? For example, I would assume the quick links should be from a climbing store and rated in kN like anything else we'd climb with, however I don't think I've ever seen ones like that on the routes I've climbed. They are normally just hardware store ones (I assume cheaper) with no strength rating. Any suggestions for good rap rings? The SMC Descending Ring on REI's website looks fine, but again its strength isn't rated, the use of which goes against everything I read in the Climbing Anchors books and whatnots.

I have a feeling that you should not be going and "upgrading" anchors around your climbing area without talking with the local climbing community and maybe working with someone with experience setting up rap anchors.

SMC descending rings are more situations when you need to rap off a tree or other anchor that needs to be outfitted with some webbing.

Please do not go around installing things that people will trust with their life when you do not have the background or experience to do such things. The fact that you are asking these questions lead me to believe that you do not possess this experience or knowledge and have no business doing this. No matter how much you tell us how experienced you are, the truth comes through your posts/questions.

In addition to not having the appropriate experience to install your own anchors, the intent of the anchor should be preserved. Those anchors you showed were not intended to be rap anchors and should not be converted to rap anchors by someone inexperienced or one that isn't familiar with the original developers/development.

There's a reason that anchor didn't have rap rings. Unless your experienced enough, please don't go around changing it for everyone's safety......
If it's designed for a walk off - then walk off. You will soon find that the ethos of the climbing community is very focused on the intent of route developers. Installing rap anchors just because you prefer rappelling on a route is not acceptable and really goes against the spirit of the community.

Maybe approach this with a little more humility and less bravado will help you find good mentors and live a long climbing career.

Best of luck... climb on.

Super Fluke wrote: Always look for something similar to this. Proper anchors with rap rings. If this is not available you will need to leave behind locking carabiners to rappel from. Never ever rap directly from the anchors, death will become you. Here is a link to some useful information. google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q…

Hmmmm. The quick links are installed upside down, probably by an idiot.

If I didn't have humility I wouldn't be asking the questions and trying to learn. You have all made it very clear that you know more than me and I am trying to learn from that knowledge.

You answered my question of if there is a reason to not install rap anchors, so thank you. It goes contrary other people's advice including the admin I quoted in my post, so I will just have to compile all the info I can from different sources since everyone has their own opinion. I can see the points from both sides. I definitely have less experience than you guys, and I'm not a climbing instructor but I do the best I can. It's great that you guys all had mentors, and I will try to find someone a can pay to go climbing with me if I can find the money. I won't install anything until I get a better feel for everyone's opinions on the matter. I will try to "talk to the local climbing community" about the issue, but will have to figure out a way to do that since I don't know any of them and rarely see anyone else at the crags I go to. I'm thinking I will start by asking around in that section of the Mtn Project site.

I understand the bit about preserving the intent of the original developer. To expand on my question, I wasn't sure if said developer left the quick links off for a functional reason or just because of funding (cost of the hardware). Good to know there is a reason behind it, although I would be curious to know what some possible reasons might be, just for my own educational purposes. From the original developer's point of view, is there a tangible down side of some kind to having quick links on the hanger, such as maybe limiting the space on the inside of the hanger or some other potential problem it could create?

Jim Titt wrote:Hmmmm. The quick links are installed upside down, probably by an idiot.

This I did not know, so I'd be curious to learn more. In what way are they upside down? and how is it possible to install them upside down when they can just be flipped over at any time? (I assume you're referring to the picture in his post).

Brian Wiesner wrote:Any suggestions for good rap rings? The SMC Descending Ring on REI's website looks fine, but again its strength isn't rated, the use of which goes against everything I read in the Climbing Anchors books and whatnots.

Rap rings and descending rings are two different things. Those SMC descending rings at REI should never be used as part of a permanent anchor - they are rolled aluminum - ie: hollow - and meant for those times were you have a webbing anchor and obviously don't want to put the rappel rope over the webbing. Their primary benefit is they're a lot cheaper than a biner.

Brian Wiesner wrote: I wasn't sure if said developer left the quick links off for a functional reason or just because of funding (cost of the hardware). Good to know there is a reason behind it, although I would be curious to know what some possible reasons might be, just for my own educational purposes. From the original developer's point of view, is there a tangible down side of some kind to having quick links on the hanger, such as maybe limiting the space on the inside of the hanger or some other potential problem it could create?

Maybe the developer spent his money elsewhere. Maybe they were stolen. Maybe there is a rappel station just next to this route. It could have a walk off. Only the developer/locals would know.

There are pros and cons to almost everything. You give up space at the hanger but gain some from the quick link. It also gives a nice surface to run your rope through. On the other hand, you have just now put an extra piece in the equation that could fail. You replace more. We could go on...

By-the-way, I believe Mr. Titt was pulling a chain, so to speak.

Hey man check out your local gym and talk to the folks there. Pretty easy to get involved in the community

jkd159 wrote: I'll admit to not having read every post in this thread. Seems like folks are correctly pointing out the errors which were made, and the OP seems receptive to the comments. Rich, I do have a question for you about the inchworm technique you propose (hopefully you are still following this thread). In the situation you describe, I would tie into the end of the rope and lead (free or aid) until I reached the other end of the rope. At that point I would tie prussiks on both ropes and ascend to the top. I have always recommended this approach for the "rappel rope stuck, still through the anchor, one end out of reach" scenario. Since both ends of the rope were at your lower anchor station before you started pulling, you are guaranteed to have enough rope to reach the loose end of the rope on lead. Thus there is only one transition from lead to prussik. Because the inchworm technique may require multiple pauses to tie in short on the lead line, I think it offers more opportunities for failure. I'm wondering why you recommend inchworm over leading on the pulled end of the rope? Thanks!

The inchworm technique is a way to work your way up the rope. If you lead off the pulled end, it is possible to run out of "belayable" rope before you reach the anchor at the top. you still lead off the pulled rope, just when you get a stance at a bolt, anchor yourself in, retie at that point in the rope making sure it is clipped properly now that you changed your tie in point, and then untie the old knot dropping it down thus giving you more slack so your belayer can keep you on belay.

It is super easy to connect with your local climbing community. One place to start is here: facebook.com/prescottclimbers or maybe facebook.com/groups/8019957…
Our local crags tend to have a group site on facebook for each location/area

Personally I have no experience placing permanent anchors and would not feel comfortable doing so. however, there are lots of people around here that do this work. They are usually very open to taking people out and giving some instruction on replacing anchors and such. They would love more people out there replacing manky anchors/bolts, with the proper training of course.

"... is there a tangible down side of some kind to having quick links on the hanger, such as maybe limiting the space on the inside of the hanger or some other potential problem it could create?"

Brian.... good observation, when somebody installs a Quicklink it makes it imposable to clip the hanger with your biner. And as has been pointed out there are cheap ones and rated ones.....I dont like clipping quicklinks, esp when somebody uses one to bail mid-way up a climb.

But let me tell you something, getting your rope stuck IS one of the most scarey things you will ever encounter in climbing. I have had the rope tie itself into an overhand knot going through a quicklink at the top of a sport climb. Cleaning that up is no problem because you just tin into the free end of the rope and relead the climb.....

Now go outside to rocks, away from all the bolts and sport climbing. Get the cord hung up on a flake after it falls free of the anchor....on like rap #5 of an 8 pitch rap. Do Rock- paper- scissor with your partner and the looser gets to climb up to the jam, batman style... and rig some sort of rap anchor. The only pro is the other end of the rope tied to you and running down to the anchor and your friend, so your looking at a big factor 2 fall. Now- thats some real fun.

Yea I have been on a few routes that were like 10 double rope rappels to get down. There was that thought in the back of my head that I was rappelling down a different spot than where we climbed up. It wasn't the fact that we would have to do some getto rigging to ascend the rope and move your tie in knot up as you go to get them unstuck but the fact that we rappelling in a different spot and there was no way we could re climb even aiding back up the wall. If the rope had got stuck we would have had to call for rescue.

Medic741 wrote:Hey man check out your local gym and talk to the folks there. Pretty easy to get involved in the community

Haha I WISH we had a climbing gym.

Ashort wrote:It is super easy to connect with your local climbing community. One place to start is here: facebook.com/prescottclimbers or maybe facebook.com/groups/8019957… Our local crags tend to have a group site on facebook for each location/area Personally I have no experience placing permanent anchors and would not feel comfortable doing so. however, there are lots of people around here that do this work. They are usually very open to taking people out and giving some instruction on replacing anchors and such. They would love more people out there replacing manky anchors/bolts, with the proper training of course.

Thanks! I was part of the coalition but not the climbing scene one.

Guy Keesee wrote:"... is there a tangible down side of some kind to having quick links on the hanger, such as maybe limiting the space on the inside of the hanger or some other potential problem it could create?" Brian.... good observation, when somebody installs a Quicklink it makes it imposable to clip the hanger with your biner. And as has been pointed out there are cheap ones and rated ones.....I dont like clipping quicklinks, esp when somebody uses one to bail mid-way up a climb.

Ya, I don't like clipping quick links or chains or anything unless I have too either so I get you there, but at the same time I don't want to leave biners at the top, so I'm torn on that one.

ViperScale wrote:Yea I have been on a few routes that were like 10 double rope rappels to get down. There was that thought in the back of my head that I was rappelling down a different spot than where we climbed up. It wasn't the fact that we would have to do some getto rigging to ascend the rope and move your tie in knot up as you go to get them unstuck but the fact that we rappelling in a different spot and there was no way we could re climb even aiding back up the wall. If the rope had got stuck we would have had to call for rescue.

That would make me nervous, but then again that's why I don't climb multipitch routes.

Super Fluke wrote: Always look for something similar to this. Proper anchors with rap rings. If this is not available you will need to leave behind locking carabiners to rappel from.

Jim Titt wrote: Hmmmm. The quick links are installed upside down, probably by an idiot.

Brian Wiesner wrote: This I did not know, so I'd be curious to learn more. In what way are they upside down? and how is it possible to install them upside down when they can just be flipped over at any time? (I assume you're referring to the picture in his post).

Jim, I'm still curious to learn how the quick links have been installed upside down. Brian's observation, quoted above, seems accurate to me. What am I missing? I don't want to be recognized as an "idiot" for doing this at some later date, especially if this is not safe. Thanks. (Referring to the quick links only.)

It is possible the route originally had quick links and were just stolen by someone because of easy access to the top or another anchor. I have had that happen to a route of mine. We now use a wrench to tighten the quick links for two reasons. If you finger tighten quick links, you will be amazed how many times you find them loose. Our theory is the wind can be relentless and cause them to loosen. The second reason is to make the theft a little more difficult.

Greg Hand wrote:It is possible the route originally had quick links and were just stolen by someone because of easy access to the top or another anchor. I have had that happen to a route of mine. We now use a wrench to tighten the quick links for two reasons. If you finger tighten quick links, you will be amazed how many times you find them loose. Our theory is the wind can be relentless and cause them to loosen. The second reason is to make the theft a little more difficult.

So let's say I (or anyone) saw some anchors like this and decided to throw some quick links on there. What I'm getting is that this decision would make some people happy and some people angry and there's no real way to know what was originally there or what the original route developer wanted. So how do those decisions get made and how to routes get improved?