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What is the hardest part about learning to climb a bigwall?

taipan jam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 30

After a primer from a crusty old trad (pitons and everything) I pretty much taught myself how to climb aid. Lots of pitches self belayed with clove hitches (not recommended). This was before the internet was invented. There are so many awesome resrouces these days.

I'm kind of in Ian's camp. Learn by doing. Don't waste other ppls time.

For me it was Hauling. Especially when soloing.

The other posters also make great points that I struggled with less than hauling...but I was always the "free climbing cutie" ( in the words of John Long) on teams when I didn't solo.

Jumaring effieciently as mentioned, also going sideways with jumars always seems to drip people. Especially cleaning pendys....

Erik Sloan · · Yosemite, CA · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 254

Thanks for the posts gang!

Yeah we are lucky for the resources that are out there! I also hear you about having something more 'start to finish' for learning.

Definitely don't worry about things seeming complicated when you're learning. I tell people every day at El Cap to just do the climb the way it happens, and not to get caught up in 'we have to get to this pitch by day 2, etc.'. Life doesn't always work like that, especially on the bigwalls. But if you're with someone who you like having adventures with, you'll always be stoked(the photos are better when things don't go perfect too, haha).

Keep the comments coming. I'd love to hear more about what resources people actually used to learn from - books, videos, etc. What was good, ok, or lame?

Thanks!
Erik
erik@yosemitebigwall.com

Chris N · · Loveland, Co · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 590

Learning how to organize all the crap you have at every belay and keeping it safe quickly. How to control unreasonable fear by always checking and thinking through what you do, ie - confidence in your safe approach to climbing.

George Bell · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 5,050

When I first learned to aid climb I was very careful and safe, but disorganized. Our speed dropped to near zero! Beginners are often glacially slow, and learning how to safely increase speed is hard. Even so, you have to get used to the fact that aid climbing is slower than free climbing. Climbing gods now blitz up aid routes at inhuman speed, but for us mortals it is still slow. Even now I tend to prefer free climbing up easier cliffs because aid is so slow. If I have to sit at a belay for a whole hour, I'm practically going nuts, even if it was totally justified by the A5 my partner just led.

Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
Chris N wrote:Learning how to organize all the crap you have at every belay and keeping it safe quickly. How to control unreasonable fear by always checking and thinking through what you do, ie - confidence in your safe approach to climbing.
For sure, it really helps to have the same system that you use every time, so it becomes habit/second nature. And that you and your partner are on the same page with the systems!
Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
George Bell wrote:When I first learned to aid climb I was very careful and safe, but disorganized. Our speed dropped to near zero! Beginners are often glacially slow, and learning how to safely increase speed is hard. Even so, you have to get used to the fact that aid climbing is slower than free climbing. Climbing gods now blitz up aid routes at inhuman speed, but for us mortals it is still slow. Even now I tend to prefer free climbing up easier cliffs because aid is so slow. If I have to sit at a belay for a whole hour, I'm practically going nuts, even if it was totally justified by the A5 my partner just led.
Yes, free and aid climbing are so different and sometimes people approach them with the same mindset at first. I think it is helpful to learn to really like sitting at the belay on aid climbs. Sometimes it's easier said than done, especially if it's too hot, too cold, etc. I just soak in the view and see it as just one part of the whole experience of climbing on the big stone! I am also managing the ropes and making sure that as soon as I hear that the lead line is fixed, I can be on it and have the bag ready to be released. Nothing will keep you busier at the belay than a big cluster that should be resolved before you hear belay off :)
Chris N · · Loveland, Co · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 590

The thing about sitting at an aid belay; if you can pick a route that gets you way, way out there that even the belays freak you out, then sitting there and staring around isn't boring.

Top Rope Hero · · Was Estes Park, now homeless · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 1,150

Hmmm... I don't have much to add in terms of the aid learnin' curve or actual acquisition of techniques 'n' such. But I second what reboot briefly said about "realizing...most of your time & (especially) energy is spent not actually climbing."

Big wall aid climbing--for slow, fallible mortals--can be and often is a fuggin' slog. AND a study in the art of tedium suffered. The few times I've ever aid climbed, I was completely unaware and unprepared for that unheroic dimension of the sport. Maybe tedium and slog improves with practice...or maybe experienced climbers just learn to shrug it off. Or perhaps it takes that special, crazy mindset where that shit just doesn't bother you. But being a Colorado climber where you often have to make nimble good time under a fast sun or else risk a lighting bolt up your ass, the slow pace and the shear physical exertion of it all was...well? Deterring at best.

I'm NOT saying I'm not up for putting some hard effort in...but the pace and the practice of big wall aid simply rubs my light-is-right training wrong, and probably keeps me from wanting to do more of it.

I KNOW that's SLA-LIGHTLY off topic from the thrust of your question...still, as a beginner of aid, I wish someone had schooled me to expect all THAT to be a part of the bag.

Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
Top Rope Hero wrote: I wish someone had schooled me to expect all THAT to be a part of the bag.
Very good point! It can be very disappointing when you expect one thing and get another! People are so focused on the technical skills when learning that it can be easy to gloss over the "oh yeah, sit on that ledge for 2 hours in between steps." :)
Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981
George Bell wrote:If I have to sit at a belay for a whole hour, I'm practically going nuts, even if it was totally justified by the A5 my partner just led.
One hour for an A5 pitch? That's damn fast.
caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Haw haw haw... Once I got really serious about training to big wall climb, I internalized Batso's comment about 'going nowhere the hard way'. Luckily, I love work, so I'm pretty happy with the project.

for me, so far, sorting out the cluster as I move has been the hardest part. (I am soloing everything).

Rachel asked someone about spreadsheets. I'm not an engineer, but a craftsman/ contractor (ok, ok, yes, I trained as an engineer...). I realized after a few pitches of aid that the most efficient way for me to get my big wall act together was to break that giant project down into "... a thousand steps", and then make a training regimen for each step. Repeat, repeat, repeat. I mentioned this to Mark Hudon, and his basic reponse was "yep, way to do it".

I listed out EVERYTHING... from setting up my portaledge, to anchor building, to cleaning on the jug. And then I decdided on a number of rounds of practice I needed to start getting comfortable with that specfic step, and every time I come home from climbing, I check off how many rounds I did. Sometimes I have a big chunk of time to work with, and just work one aspect (set up ledge, breakdown, set up, x10. Set up hanging anchor, [set up ledge, breakdown] x 10. that was one long session). One thing I decided on - a certain number of repeats has to be done for a specific glitch in a task to be recognized (3?), and maybe 4 or 5 repeats done with the solution in hand for the new & better version to start to be remembered.

Admittedly, it doesn't feel very much like climbing to spend 3 hours setting up and breaking down a portaledge 40 times... but it does very much feel like the beginnings of mastery to know which parts I've worked on, and which parts I've yet to learn.

Anyone who wants a copy of my Excel spreadsheet for big wall task training is welcome it.

Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
caribouman1052 wrote:for me, so far, sorting out the cluster as I move has been the hardest part. (I am soloing everything). Rachel asked someone about spreadsheets. I'm not an engineer, but a craftsman/ contractor (ok, ok, yes, I trained as an engineer...). I realized after a few pitches of aid that the most efficient way for me to get my big wall act together was to break that giant project down into "... a thousand steps", and then make a training regimen for each step. Repeat, repeat, repeat.... Anyone who wants a copy of my Excel spreadsheet for big wall task training is welcome it.
I love all these spreadsheet answers! Such dedication at a detailed level. And you might have to take my engineer "card" away since I didn't think of it myself :) Anyway, caribouman1052, I'd love to take a peak at your spreadsheet if you don't mind! Thanks!
George Bell · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 5,050
kevin deweese wrote: One hour for an A5 pitch? That's damn fast.
Yeah, to be honest I have never even belayed anyone on A5, I think the hardest aid I have ever done (lead or jumar) was only A3.
Chris N · · Loveland, Co · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 590

WOW!! And I thought that any A5 rated climb that is actually climbed is supposed to be down rated to A4. If a later ascent was done and the climbers got scared and threw a bolt in, the climb should be rated A3.
Now you know why Layton Kor used to scare the crap out of his climbing partners so he could get the lead on those old aid routes. Who wants to sit there feeling like you have to piss or crap for 4 hours while your partner is having all the fun leading the death pitch?

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

For you beginners, here's a big tip that can make the difference between success and failure.

Grab your partner and a topo of the route and go over EVERY detail! Describe IN DETAIL every little thing on the topo, every pitch, all the way up the route.

The leader should describe everything; what he's going to leave at that mid pitch tension traverse, how he is going to set up the anchor, where are the bags going to go on the anchor, where the haul kit will go, EVERYTHING.

The second then describes how he will clean it. Racking the gear, dealing with the haul bag if it gets stuck, cleaning that tension traverse, etc...

Describe meeting at the anchor and how you will exchange gear and get the new leader going. Discuss tagging gear up, discuss what happens to the leader if he should fall and not be near the route. Discuss what you will do when the wind comes up and you can't hear each other.

Discuss and practice setting up your ledge, taking it down, unpacking the haul bags, packing them up, THE WHOLE NICE YARDS!!!!!

Max Jones, who I've now climbed 10 or so El Cap routes with and literally thousands of pitches with over the last 40 years, and I still sat down and discussed how we were going to a certain few things on our ascent of Reticent last year. We still ask each other how we should do certain wall tasks and tricks. We talk about it before we get there and get all clustered.

Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
Mark Hudon wrote:Grab your partner and a topo of the route and go over EVERY detail!
Absolutely. Do your prep, then be ready to roll with whatever the wall throws at you :)
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
csproul wrote: 2) lead speed. I'm still amazed that my partner and I were taking up to 3+ hours to lead a c2 pitch. And it's not like I haven't been placing gear for a long time.
This. Holy shit, it took me five hours once just to solo aid the roof crack at Castle Rock in Boulder Canyon. The weight distribution to get gear out was what took the longest to figure out. I couldn't believe it, but the watch doesn't lie. It doesn't feel that long, either. Luckily, after I was done the nicest girl ever invited me to climb with her and her friends (Thanks Helen!).
Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
revans90 wrote: 2) Change overs becoming efficiency at the belay is fastest thing you can improve on with speed. Changing over in 5 min vs 20 minutes adds up over a wall!! ON Belay? ondelay! Yeeehaw!! 3) Miles on Rock It takes time to learn all the tricks. Setting up the belay and hauling in 5 minutes vs 20 minutes as well as change overs will make more time at first then leading quickly.
For sure, the belay setup and changeover! Being faster by 15 min each time turns into hours on a grade V or VI!
Waychill · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0
Stich wrote: The weight distribution to get gear out was what took the longest to figure out.
Ahh, was it overhung or traversing?
Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981
Rachel Arst McCullough wrote: Ahh, was it overhung or traversing?
Most likely when he's talking about weight, it relates to how hard it is to get your gear off your rack?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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