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Moderate, True Grade III routes in the Southeast

Original Post
Brandon.Phillips · · Portola, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 55

I'm taking an AMGA course next year and need a couple more Grade III routes for my resume. I'm looking for stuff in the Southeast (North Carolina unless there are places I don't know about). I'm saying "True" grade III because on Mountain Project the Nose on Looking Glass is listed as grade III, but I can't imagine it taking more than half a day for folks who have done a lot of multipitch.

Suggestions? Looking for routes up 5.10. A plus if there are no huge runouts.

Would Fathom be doable for a first trip to Laurel Knob, or should I try Groover or Seconds first?

_ Brandon

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30
Brandon.Phillips wrote: Would Fathom be doable for a first trip to Laurel Knob _ Brandon
Very much so.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Most anything at Laurel Knob would qualify. Groover apparently got some bolts added to 4th pitch, so it should feel a lot more moderate now. Fathom and others would be fine, as well.

The OR and Traditions at Whiteside can both go "moderate" at 5.9 A0, or very doable 5.11.

Otherwise, link-up options abound for the Rock Guide Course resume. Nose-Sundial-Peregrine would easily qualify. Mummy-Daddy-Prow is another good one. Any two routes at Shortoff could work. You could string together a 15-pitch day at Table Rock. You could do a tour of the south side of Looking Glass.

The intention is that you are solid on multipitch terrain with efficient transitions, good rope management, and move reasonably quickly. You could also think of Grade III as what a reasonably fit client could accomplish in a full 8-hour work day of guiding, in which case, all the link-ups listed above would qualify.

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

look at some of the easier routes on whitesides...both LK and Whitesides may qualify but really depends on how fast you do. I've done 2 full LK routes and a full Whitesides route in a day before. all 5.9-5.11 so its really a bit subjective

I would say the direct finish to traditions is probably the best grade 3 route around the OR area on whitesides. Damn near impossible to free the A0 section. The OR is an overrated route with two crux moves but mostly easier climbing in between. Catholic school girls direct is way better albeit a bit less protected.

Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

Fathom and Groover are certainly good options for Grade III. Both still have some runouts in the easier sections. Having a good head and confidence with slab is mandatory. With an alpine start, all of these routes could be done in the summer as long as you are rappelling by 11am. Fathom was one of my first routes at Laurel, due to the ease of bailing on every pitch after the 3rd. There are still some long runouts on the 3rd, 4th, and start of the 5th pitches, but that is all subjective. The crux is one of the more well-protected pitches, minus the start. The pitches after that get a little dicey or dirty. No way would Seconds alone would be Grade III, but as Derek mentioned (he is a guide), you only need to be proficient so linkups work. Seconds into Central Pillar would be awesome.

If 10a is your max, not sure I would recommend any of the Whitesides routes mentioned. Almost every pitch has serious consequences in the moderate sections. There are several traverses where the leader or second just shouldn't fall in 5.7 or below territory. There was an injury a few years back on the P3 traverse that ended in a pretty impressive self-rescue. If you are looking for some serious moderate adventure, when the falcon closure is lifted, check out Save the Shrimp at Whitesides. I know some people have had some hair-raising experiences with the P1 of the OR, mainly due to route finding. If any of these routes would be near your limit, you should hook up with someone that has done them before. Previewing some of these routes will do a tremendous amount to put your mind at ease. Also, the main face is great right now if you start climbing around 3pm and don't get any afternoon thundershowers.

It would be nice if some people started adding some of the moderate routes on the north face of Whitesides to the mp database. This would add some more options and would be Grade III most likely. They have already been done, but much of the details have been lost to obscurity.

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620
TomCaldwell wrote:It would be nice if some people started adding some of the moderate routes on the north face of Whitesides to the mp database. This would add some more options and would be Grade III most likely. They have already been done, but much of the details have been lost to obscurity.
Indeed.
Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623

On another note, I would seriously evaluate why you want to be a guide. Is it that you think by being a guide you will get to climb all the time? Or do you enjoy being in the outdoors putting up TR's on the same 5.6 and easier every day during the heat of the summer for out of shape tourists?

If your answer is yes to the first one, then I would suggest a different means to climbing more. Find a job closer to a larger climbing area, Chattanooga and Boulder come to mind. Another way is to save up a bunch of money while being a weekend warrior, then dirtbag-it until you blow through it. I chose keeping a lower paying job in academics because it is more flexible so I can get out when the weather is good or my partner is off work.

If your answer is yes to the second one, well then being a guide just might be your thing. Be wary, the turnover rate is high, don't expect to retire with this job, and you should have a job closed to lined up before you start. I have a lot of friends that stopped guiding after seeing the reality of it, it's not always glamorous. If you can stick with it and achieve some of the upper certifications, the jobs start to get more adventurous. There is a long grind to even qualify for the upper certs. You being 30 means you already have a late start. This isn't meant to discourage you, but just to consider the time and money commitment to the reality of guiding. I read a good article in Climbing a few years back that related guiding to being a porn star. Essentially you do it all the time, when it comes time to do it for personal reasons, it's not as exciting.

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

You know, this sour grapes take on guiding is getting pretty tired.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Just make sure you don't follow CCC guide to getting to Laurel Knob. Only been there once and it was over 10 miles much of which bushwhacking to get to the wall because i read the CCC guide that said stay off deep gap... but you have to go down deep gap and take a right to a CCC trail with a tiny sign that can get buried in leafs right before you get to the end of it.

We attempted seconds but ended up bailing after the 3rd pitch due to just being tired (drove up late and didn't get there until like 2am the previous day). Really need to get back and finish the route.

I considered trying to find someone who lives at the base and offering them 50$ to park in their driveway for the day to avoid the hike.

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

yeah i didnt look at how hard you climb...was just thinking of grade 3 routes that are leadable if solid in the 5.10...

Also the CCC hike to the knob takes 45 minutes in and maybe an hour and change out to get to the base of the cliff. Its mostly leisure walking with a few humps up a few hills and is altogether very pleasurable i think. I never did understand why people bitch about it. Look at it as training for other things where an hour hike doesnt even get you a 1/4 of the way to your objective.

Andrew Blease · · Bartlett, NH · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 470

I'm in the same boat. I just finished the RGC and need to start ticking some longer objectives. Get in touch and we'll go climbing! andrewjacobblease@gmail.com

Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623
Tico wrote:You know, this sour grapes take on guiding is getting pretty tired.
Sorry if my honest take on people getting into guiding is affecting your business, but I don't have a personal interest in the matter. I think many climbers have been lured by the idea that "if I guide, I get to climb all the time", myself included. Maybe guiding in the south is not the same as guiding in Oregon. My take on it was strictly speaking from the south perspective. If your interests truly lay with the guide in mind, then a warning is only fair. Maybe I could have softened up my analysis a bit, but I would be doing the OP a disservice.
Raul P · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 35

Agreed with TC. I stopped early on the certs, and am happy I did so. I climb more now not being a guide and don't have to spend my weekends supervising 5.4 top ropes at sandrock. That being said, the strongest climber I ever met was a guide(my spi instructor), and he loved the shit out of it.

Brandon.Phillips · · Portola, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 55

Guiding seems to be one of those love it or hate it things. I've put in the time taking beginners out to top rope for about 5 years, so I do know how that is. But I don't want to open up that can of worms in this discussion.

Also looking for partners to climb longer stuff with. Most of the my friends I usually climb with would not be described as "fast" or "efficient", which becomes problematic for finishing longer routes.

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0
TomCaldwell wrote: Sorry if my honest take on people getting into guiding is affecting your business, but I don't have a personal interest in the matter. I think many climbers have been lured by the idea that "if I guide, I get to climb all the time", myself included. Maybe guiding in the south is not the same as guiding in Oregon. My take on it was strictly speaking from the south perspective. If your interests truly lay with the guide in mind, then a warning is only fair. Maybe I could have softened up my analysis a bit, but I would be doing the OP a disservice.
Why would it hurt my business? The fewer guides there are, the better for me. You're right, to a degree, but most modern guides understand the scope of the job, what it is and isn't. Career guides travel, a lot. And once you've paid your dues, you can generally do the type of guiding you enjoy. I rarely if ever toprope guide. Many guides wash out early and share your take though.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Brandon.Phillips wrote:Guiding seems to be one of those love it or hate it things. I've put in the time taking beginners out to top rope for about 5 years, so I do know how that is. But I don't want to open up that can of worms in this discussion. Also looking for partners to climb longer stuff with. Most of the my friends I usually climb with would not be described as "fast" or "efficient", which becomes problematic for finishing longer routes.
In an effort to avoid "that can of worms" (though no disrespect to Tico or Tom's points), I'll continue on the assumption that you've decided this is what you want to do. In that case, those friends who aren't fast/efficient would probably make great mock clients. See if you can't do one of those link-ups with them, and that will give you an idea of how to go about working on your multipitch guiding.

If they're slow, ask yourself why and identify ways to address that. Then, assuming they're willing, teach them how to be more efficient. As they're learning, you'll need to be more efficient to compensate. If it takes them 30 minutes to follow the pitch, you'll need to be leading it a lot faster than that to have any shot at completing longer routes.

While not necessarily the best learning environment for your friends (since you'll presumably still be learning how to be a good instructor), your friends can be (fortunately or not) your best test subjects in learning to become a better guide. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't incredibly indebted to my wife for letting me practice numerous techniques with her.
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0
Derek DeBruin wrote:I'd be lying if I said I wasn't incredibly indebted to my wife for letting me practice numerous techniques with her.
Just wanted to preserve this, out of context, for future jokes.
Andrew Blease · · Bartlett, NH · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 470

I'll second what Derek said. My wife and friends are constant, patient test subjects for my new guiding tricks. Also, Tico you did an excellent job taking something out of context and making it funny. Kudos

BirminghamBen · · Birmingham, AL · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,620

See, Tom, even guides have a sense of humor.
That WAS funny.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Tico wrote: Just wanted to preserve this, out of context, for future jokes.
What's out of context? Do others not practice techniques with their spouse? It's certainly more fun than practicing by yourself ;)
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
TomCaldwell wrote:Fathom and Groover are certainly good options for Grade III. Both still have some runouts in the easier sections. Having a good head and confidence with slab is mandatory. With an alpine start, all of these routes could be done in the summer as long as you are rappelling by 11am. Fathom was one of my first routes at Laurel, due to the ease of bailing on every pitch after the 3rd. There are still some long runouts on the 3rd, 4th, and start of the 5th pitches, but that is all subjective. The crux is one of the more well-protected pitches, minus the start. The pitches after that get a little dicey or dirty. No way would Seconds alone would be Grade III, but as Derek mentioned (he is a guide), you only need to be proficient so linkups work. Seconds into Central Pillar would be awesome. If 10a is your max, not sure I would recommend any of the Whitesides routes mentioned. Almost every pitch has serious consequences in the moderate sections. There are several traverses where the leader or second just shouldn't fall in 5.7 or below territory. There was an injury a few years back on the P3 traverse that ended in a pretty impressive self-rescue. If you are looking for some serious moderate adventure, when the falcon closure is lifted, check out Save the Shrimp at Whitesides. I know some people have had some hair-raising experiences with the P1 of the OR, mainly due to route finding. If any of these routes would be near your limit, you should hook up with someone that has done them before. Previewing some of these routes will do a tremendous amount to put your mind at ease. Also, the main face is great right now if you start climbing around 3pm and don't get any afternoon thundershowers. It would be nice if some people started adding some of the moderate routes on the north face of Whitesides to the mp database. This would add some more options and would be Grade III most likely. They have already been done, but much of the details have been lost to obscurity.
How do you consider anything at LK not to be a grade 3?

Here is wiki definination of a grade 1 and 2.

I-II: 1 or 2 pitches near the car, but may need to be avoided during avalanche season.

I don't think anything at LK would match that. 800+ ft of climbing and a 1 hour walk in and out. Maybe grade 3 should really be split up because you can go do stuff in yosemite that is grade 3 with 5k elevation change from car to top and back to car with 1k + ft of climbing and 10+ miles of hiking but still LK doesn't fit in I-II range either.

Also don't know where you put in routes that you park at the base and have no hike in but have to climb 1500+ ft and have had people get stuck over night on. Putting them as 1 or 2 doesn't really seem right since there is no approach but at the same time 1500ft of climbing doesn't fit with a grade 1 or 2.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern States
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