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beginner using ATC

Original Post
dahigdon · · phoenix, Az · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 220

Say i've set a TR on a route, climbed the route and am ready for my 'beginner' partner to lower me using an ATC... Not wanting to die, could I setup a prussik around both strands and then have my partner begin to lower me while i guide the prussik down the rope simultaneously.. My though here is that in the event something bad happens, maybe the prussik will prevent me from bouncing like a rubber ball (assuming i take my hands off the prussik).

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

You could just hand over hand the side that's going up as you're going down. If you were to use a prussik, just that side of the rope should be fine. Both may cause some unwanted excess friction during lowering.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Jovid wrote:Say i've set a TR on a route, climbed the route and am ready for my 'beginner' partner to lower me using an ATC... Not wanting to die, could I setup a prussik around both strands and then have my partner begin to lower me while i guide the prussik down the rope simultaneously.. My though here is that in the event something bad happens, maybe the prussik will prevent me from bouncing like a rubber ball (assuming i take my hands off the prussik).
You could tie a prussik around the belayer side of the rope, attach it to your harness, and work your way down. You could also set your own ATC on the belayer side of the rope and lower yourself down. Or rappel.
Something to consider - if you don't trust your belayer to lower you safely, when the load on the rope is static and expected, how will you feel about them catching an unexpected fall, and either holding you or lowering you then? It seems if your partner is not ready to lower safely, they probably shouldn't be belaying you at all.
TSluiter · · Holland, VT · Joined May 2013 · Points: 314
Em Cos wrote: Something to consider - if you don't trust your belayer to lower you safely, when the load on the rope is static and expected, how will you feel about them catching an unexpected fall, and either holding you or lowering you then? It seems if your partner is not ready to lower safely, they probably shouldn't be belaying you at all.
So Em nailed it. Let them practice lowering and catching falls 10' above the deck about 15-20 times. Then you both will feel a little more comfortable.

Also, you wouldn't set up a prussic around both strands (one is connected to you, yes?). You could put it over on the belayers side and go down like that. But again, some practice with your belayer is the real issue here.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

You need to have trust in the competencies of your partner. Even if they have never climbed before I generally have trust in my partner. I teach them and reiterate to them that my life is literally in their hands.

But there are idiots out there that I wouldn't trust that they are capable of looking after a pet rock for 10 minutes. These people shouldn't be at crags.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Jovid wrote:Say i've set a TR on a route, climbed the route and am ready for my 'beginner' partner to lower me using an ATC... Not wanting to die, could I setup a prussik around both strands and then have my partner begin to lower me while i guide the prussik down the rope simultaneously.. My though here is that in the event something bad happens, maybe the prussik will prevent me from bouncing like a rubber ball (assuming i take my hands off the prussik).
Wait you are ok climbing with your beginner partner belaying you but don't trust him to lower you????
Brent Butcher · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 275

I'll say it... yer gonna die

TSluiter · · Holland, VT · Joined May 2013 · Points: 314

^Was waiting for it

Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415

She's hot, right?

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

I'm just going to chime in and say that while everyone else is offering alternatives, specifically what you mentioned is bad, because you would be isolating a strand of your rope (where the prussik touches rope on your climber side) and then abraiding it with the other end of the rope (belayers side) causing heat and friction. We try not to do that to any soft goods. Like how your ATC heats up because you are running a rope over it in an isolated area, that's no bueno to do to nylon. See what I am getting at?

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155
Em Cos wrote: You could tie a prussik around the belayer side of the rope, attach it to your harness, and work your way down. You could also set your own ATC on the belayer side of the rope and lower yourself down. Or rappel. Something to consider - if you don't trust your belayer to lower you safely, when the load on the rope is static and expected, how will you feel about them catching an unexpected fall, and either holding you or lowering you then? It seems if your partner is not ready to lower safely, they probably shouldn't be belaying you at all.
This.

If you are really concerned your belayer will take the hand off the brake side of the rope, you could tape the belayers thumb and middle finger together(while holding the rope). This ensures that the belayer will at least burn their hand and you fall to your death.
Kevin K · · San Diego · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 5
Tom Sherman wrote:I'm just going to chime in and say that while everyone else is offering alternatives, specifically what you mentioned is bad, because you would be isolating a strand of your rope (where the prussik touches rope on your climber side) and then abraiding it with the other end of the rope (belayers side) causing heat and friction. We try not to do that to any soft goods. Like how your ATC heats up because you are running a rope over it in an isolated area, that's no bueno to do to nylon. See what I am getting at?
Not much different from using an autoblock while rappelling, which is totally fine for the rope.
Rusty Finkelstein · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 0

Hey Kevin, not quite the same as an auto block while rapping. Think about it... while rapping you're moving down both sides of the rope... with that set up, the side that you're tied into would stay stationary inside the prussik while the belayer side moves up through the prussik toward the anchor. To the OP: the other method mentioned is far superior, and I'll second that If you don't trust them to lower you, how could you trust they would catch an unexpected fall?? ...Very scary if that never occurred to you.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Rusty Finkelstein wrote:Hey Kevin, not quite the same as an auto block while rapping. Think about it... while rapping you're moving down both sides of the rope... with that set up, the side that you're tied into would stay stationary inside the prussik while the belayer side moves up through the prussik toward the anchor.
I think Rusty's right here, it sounds like OP is proposing wrapping the prussik around both strands of rope.

I don't know that doing so would kill you, but it's definitely the wrong way to do it. You would be binding both strands of rope tightly together, while they move in opposite directions... no bueno. Far better to wrap the prussik around the belay side of the rope and clip the prussik to your harness. If your belayer goes AWOL, the prussik will hold the brake end and your harness will hold the climber end.
Kevin K · · San Diego · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 5

I guess you guys are right... I was thinking he meant one prusik on each line (still not the right way). That's an even worse idea than I originally thought! Agree that Em nailed it right away.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

This is what happens when your belayer doesn't know what they are doing...
youtube.com/watch?v=jd8VT7P…

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

^^^ "Slack"... "slack"... " slack"...

She wasn't going to let that happen again.

W.T.F. Then he goes for take two.

Lucky everything turned out good on that.

dahigdon · · phoenix, Az · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 220

Thanks for the 'mostly' constructive feedback as well as the 'mostly' deserved criticism. I just don't have many climbing partners being so new to the sport. I have one person I climb with often, and he has only been climbing for a couple years himself.. So, I do not have access to an old timey trad climber that can teach me everything I'll ever need to know. I'm overly excited about climbing in general and when someone seems to take an interest in the sport I try to feed their enthusiasm and enable them to experience this sport. I am no guide by any means, but I feel confident enough to teach someone to belay on a very easy TR setup. I just wanted to explore the option of protecting myself in the event this new climber makes a mistake.

Although some of you have chosen to take jabs at my general ability to make choices in good judgement, may I remind you we are discussing the art of climbing rocks... We are all taking risks here, we just take a series of precautions designed to mitigate those risks. Precautions that all of you had to learn in some way or another.. I don't imagine you were born with the knowledge required to escape the belay or even tie your shoe, much less a clove hitch. Someone has taught you the things you know.

Thanks for the explanations.

Dave

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Jovid wrote:... I feel confident enough to teach someone to belay on a very easy TR setup. I just wanted to explore the option of protecting myself in the event this new climber makes a mistake. ...
Hi Dave,
Yes, we've all been there, and I don't think anyone was trying to do anything but offer you the advice and help that you requested. Well, I suppose I can really only speak for myself with certainty - I wasn't trying to criticize, just pointing out a truth - that if you can't trust your belayer to lower you, you can't trust them to catch your falls. I understand you don't want to deck when being lowered. None of us want you to deck... EVER. So if your new climbing partner isn't ready, if you have a feeling of hesitance in your gut, a feeling that when you say "take" and lean back you are any less than 100% sure they will be able to lower you to the ground safely, then you shouldn't start up that climb with that belayer. Practice, teach, and practice again. And if they have practiced plenty, and still don't seem to be grasping it - either good belay technique or the seriousness of the responsibility of belaying - then don't climb with them. Move on, find a different partner.

I understand eagerness to climb, but getting out on the rock today is not worth potentially life-altering or life-ending injuries decking off a TR. We all struggle at times to find the right climbing partners, sometimes it takes a while to find the right people that are just the right match for your personality, climbing style and ability, safety/risk threshold, etc. But "I trust your belay" is a baseline that every potential climbing partner needs to meet. Hang in there, keep searching and keep learning.
TSluiter · · Holland, VT · Joined May 2013 · Points: 314

To add to Em again (b/c he/she is right on), I would suggest getting an autoblocking belay device (Grigri or otherwise) to help mitigate SOME of the risk with new belayers. In reality, they should be solid with an ATC through practice falls but if you are feeling a little ancy, give em your Grigri.

Some folks will rightly say 'they should learn to belay first with an atc' & 'autoblockers are dangerous because they won't learn technique' but it will give you a little more of a peace of mind.

Anytime I ask for a catch from a stranger, I gauge their ability and also hand em my Grigri, unless they insist otherwise.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Decking will happen if you climb long enough, I have seen it a few times and props to the people I saw it happen to. They got back up and finished leading the route right after they dropped 8-10ft failing to clip the first bolt.

At the same time grigri or similar isn't a bad idea if you are really worried about the person belaying you. I personally hate them but they can be useful if you are worried about a person letting go on top rope. Just remember they need to learn to use a real atc before I would let them lead belay you. (yes i know people who use the others for leading but I also know they don't need it)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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