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Rappel accident in the Gunks on 7/25

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
kennoyce wrote: As was mentioned, it probably wouldn't be able to cinch up fast enough to catch, but even if it could, your immediate reaction to rapping off the end of a rope would be to grab the rope to keep you from falling, but the hand you'd be grabbing the rope with would be the hand that's tending the friction hitch which would just further prevent it from cinching on the rope.
This has been tested and that's exactly what happens. In the tests, the rappeller was of course belayed and knew that they were going to go off the end of the rope, and the prussik system still didn't catch them, because, in spite of knowing exactly what was about to happen, they were unable to release the hand that has to drag the prussik down in time. The conclusion was that a prussik above the device will absolutely not stop you from going off the end of the ropek and will not, in general, function at all unless the incident requiring its use forces the climber to let go.

This renders the prussik above the device ineffective in many other circumstances as well, so it is a distinctly inferior backup solution to the now more standard method with the autoblock below the rap device.
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse!

Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.

Paul H · · Pennsylvania · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 5
Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.
I would expect that it has saved quite a number of people. In the simplest sense it is preventing an accident from occurring, so no accident/incident report is created.

No one in my group has had an issue with rapping off the end of the rope, or coming close. However, they all still knot the end of the rope unless someone is at the bottom (sport climbing) to confirm the ends are on the ground.

For me it's well worth the minimal time and effort to knot the ends to avoid the potentially lethal fall.
Jeffrey Gagliano · · Pennsburg, PA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 260

This unfortunate climber did not rap off the ends of her rope because she failed to tie knots, but rather because she was not aware of her rope ends. That is the real issue here. When rappelling you always watch where you're going. If you feel the need to enjoy the view, stop descending.

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506
Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.
I've done rope stretchers quite a few times where trying to find a good rap area I've been comforted of having the knots dangling a couple feet from the ATC.
Mostly happens on ice or non equipped cliffs.
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Luc wrote: I've done rope stretchers quite a few times where trying to find a good rap area I've been comforted of having the knots dangling a couple feet from the ATC. Mostly happens on ice or non equipped cliffs.
OK, that is close, but not quite what I meant. I'm not asking about "comfort", I'm asking about situations where, literally, the knots saved someone's life.
Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

It's my 1st year climbing outdoors...

In the situation where you've rapped down to your safety knots and you've not yet reached the next belay/rap station, is there a self rescue action that can be taken? I'm trying to envision a way of switching from rapping to lowering... can't see how it could be done...

In the unlikely situation that you're carrying a second rope, you could edk the second rope to the first, clove and then munter into the second, un clip your rap device from rope #1 after ascending #1, and then rap off #2.

Or are you instead praying for 3rd party rescue?

Basically, how do you get down if you've rapped to your knots and are dangling in space?

Colin Porter · · Stockholm, SE · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 5
Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.
It's an excellent question. It wouldn't surprise me if it's extremely rare. The same people who tie backup knots are the same people who ensure their rope is at it's half point and watch the ends as they rap.
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Colin Porter wrote:The same people who tie backup knots are the same people who ensure their rope is at it's half point and watch the ends as they rap.
Yep, that's exactly my suspicion. I'm guessing that the real benefit of taking this step is that it makes you actively focus on where the ends of the rope are. If so, that implies that there are other ways to avoid such accidents, so long as one takes SOME sort of step along those lines.
Colin Porter · · Stockholm, SE · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 5
Lofg0029 wrote:Basically, how do you get down if you've rapped to your knots and are dangling in space?
Prusik back up the rap line. Not a fun endeavor.
Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Also asked because everyone is discussing what could have been done prior to rappelling but clearly, this party placed false confidence in their setup... But confidence nonetheless. Had they tied knots in the ends, how would the dangling climber gotten down?

christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.
It's happened to a close friend of mine- he was using a borrowed bi-pattern rope that had one end chopped down by about 15 feet due to wear. Knot stopped him from falling about 10 feet onto steep, loose talus.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
Lofg0029 wrote:Also asked because everyone is discussing what could have been done prior to rappelling but clearly, this party placed false confidence in their setup... But confidence nonetheless. Had they tied knots in the ends, how would the dangling climber gotten down?
When you get to the knot, you just let the other end slip through the belay device until down. Basically you're on a self-belay TR at that point.
Dan Flynn · · Northeast mostly · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5,065
Alexey Dynkin wrote:First of all, speedy recovery for the victim - glad it didn't turn out worse! Second: here's a question. Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends? I'm just curious, because I personally haven't and haven't heard of this ever happening.
Yes. And I'm comfortable with the blanket statement, always tie knots. No knots is for me the rare exception.

Best wishes to the climber and their party.
Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
Dan Flynn wrote:Yes
Yes, it's happened to you, or you know someone? Any details?
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506
Colin Porter wrote: Prusik back up the rap line. Not a fun endeavor.
When I first started climbing with a club, we learned to prussic (up and down) before learning to rappel. This ensured you knew how to return to the rap anchor if you ended up dangling in mid-air (above a set of knotted ropes).
Also learned to prussic passed a knot, tying backup knots while progressing etc.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
JonP756 wrote:If you tie EDKs at the end of your rope they are less likely to get caught.
That's for tying two ropes together to rap, when pulling one rope the EDK is a flat knot that is less likely to snag. Wouldn't help for tying two ends together, as you're not pulling the two ropes apart (as you are when pulling down on one strand to pull ropes after a rap) to expose the flat side of the EDK to the rock - if that makes sense.

I have to agree that tying knots in the ends is situational, and I think it is better to teach climbers the pros and cons of each technique and how to assess a situation and choose the best technique for it, rather than making rigid "always do this" rules without explaining why. When accidents like this happen, it is common to hear "if they had tied knots in the ends of the rope, this accident wouldn't have happened". That might be true. It might also be true that the accident would have been prevented if: they had taken care to set up the rappel with the rope in the middle, they had confirmed with bystanders on the ground that the rope ends were both down, they had rapped slowly and carefully while keeping an eye on the rope below them, they had tied into both ends, they had lowered the first climber who then confirmed both ends were down for the second...

There are lots of ways to prevent such an accident and many of them don't result in a climber dangling 10' above the ground with a knot jammed in their belay device, who may or may not know how to get themselves out of that situation.

I think when we ask new climbers to simply memorize a list of rigid dos and don'ts, instead of teaching them many options and to think through each situation, we sometimes end up with new climbers getting themselves in a pickle by stubbornly insisting on a technique that may not be right for their current situation, proclaiming "but my sister/boyfriend/mentor/REI class said I have to ALWAYS do it this way!"

Just my $.02. I do agree that tying knots in the ends can be a quick and easy precaution that causes problems (probably) about as rarely as it saves lives, and it's a good technique to know.
Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
Alexey Dynkin wrote:Has anyone actually been in a situation, or know someone who has, where a knot in the end of the rope has prevented you from rapping off the ends?
It has happened to me once. I was bouncing having my feet about 3 inches out of the ground trying to figure out how to escape this stupid situation :) Finally I prusiked ropes, pulled up a bit and untied those knots.
Alex Jacques · · Idyllwild, CA · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 275

Wear seat belts. Tie knots on your ropes. Learn the rules then "break them" when you know when and why to break them.

Best wishes to the woman who was injured.

Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81

Any info on victim's name? I searched with no result.

Thank you.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Injuries and Accidents
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