Building anchors?

I'm a new climber about to make my transition outside. I just bought some BlueWater 1'' Climb-Spec Tubular Webbing with the intent of using it to make top rope anchors and extended slings. This was the cheapest option I could find. My question is what knot is best to tie to close the loop. I'm thinking a water knot, but want to get some real feed back. I know this wasn't the best option but bells and whistles can be purchased later. Im just excited to get climbing.

Neatly tied water knot with long tails will be your best option.

Could I stitch the tails to clean it up?

You could stitch the tails but then your committing to have it be a closed loop. If it really bothers you to have the tails flopping about a little loop of duct tape or climbing tape can keep them clean, while still allowing you to untie the webbing if need be.

Look up the beer knot. It's old school but would clean up the tails and is a little stronger then the water knot.

Get Falcon guide to top roping. Bob Gains is the author ... I think. Tons of useful info on anchors. Practice on stairs or deck rails and backyard trees.

What Joshua said.

The BSA (and you know they are going to play it super safe because of liability issues) uses a water knot with stopper knots on each end.

If you look at how a water knot works, you'll see that the more you pull either working end, the tighter it gets. There is little to no slippage. In fact, I would feel very comfortable just leaving 6-8 inches on either end without a stopper knot.

Having the ability to tie and untie the webbing is important for convenience (going around a tree, going under a boulder, etc.), so I would not recommend any sort of semi-permanent solution.

But like Joshua said, practice a lot and make them super well dressed knots.

If you get good at tying water knots, you can even move the knot along to help equalize.

+1 for water knot. But, Inspect before each use. The failure mode of the water knot is that under repeated load cycles, it slowly eats the tails until it fails. Leave plenty of tail and you won't have a problem. Rule of thumb: If you have enough tail to tie a backup knot (overhand), you don't need a backup knot. If you don't have enough tail to tie a backup knot, you need to tie a backup knot.

Hello,

I would highly recommend hiring a guide for a few days to work on basic outdoor climbing skills and risk management. Once you have the basics and a good eye for serene anchors, you will feel much more confident setting up your own climbs and climbing with other partners. Take a look at Blue Ridge Mountain Guides we offer courses and private guiding that can be tailored to fit you.

-1 for the water knot. The tails can creep under cyclic loading. Tests done by the AMGA in 2001 indicated a creep rate often more than 1" per hundred loadings. Naturally, the rate of creeping slows as the knot tightens. Moyer's tests found that 3'' tails were gone after about 800 cycles. So yeah, you can make them long, yeah, you can inspect them, but why add that extra concern at all? The only thing really going for the water knot is it is pretty in webbing.

If you intend to have a permanent loop, use a double fisherman's knot. (And if you are going to put backup knots on the water knot you are basically adding a double fisherman's knot anyway.) The double fisherman's is slightly stronger than the water knot (this doesn't matter) and it doesn't creep. (Well, it doesn't creep nearly as fast. Inspecting the tails is still prudent.) But once a double fisherman's has been loaded multiple times, you may not be able to get it untied. It is bulkier than a water knot and isn't pretty in webbing. (But, the water knot is much easier to adjust than a double fisherman's, which is why we used them to join swami belts BITD. But adjustability is not an issue for your application.)

If you insist on a water knot, then make sure to vigorously bounce tighten it under body weight. Some people claim that soaking the knot and then bounce tightening it makes it even less susceptible to creeping, but I know of know verifications for that claim.

-2 for the Beer knot. One tail is inside the tubular webbing. If it creeps, you'll never know it unless your inspection procedure includes feeling for the invisible tail.

rgold wrote:-1 for the water knot. The tails can creep under cyclic loading. Tests done by the AMGA in 2001 indicated a creep rate often more than 1" per hundred loadings. .

Probably not much of a concern if he's just TRing for the day. The study I read says 0.0035 per cycle or 0.35 inches per 100. Mr. Moyer even suggests he will continue to use water knots. So Chase, go with a water knot with back up knots and call it good. Double or triple the loop for increased strength and less tension on the knot.

Double fisherman's is a no questions asked bomber knot.

As you can see, there are some differences of opinion here...for me, the benefits of being able to untie a water knot with relative ease when I want to outweigh the extremely unlikely scenario of the knot creeping to the point of coming undone without me noticing it. Consider, too, that you should always have at least 2 fully independent strands in each TR anchor that you make, so that even in the (again, extremely unlikely) event that the water knot fails, you would still have a second strand on the un-knotted part of the runner holding you. Does that make sense?

Edited: that being said, a water knot that has been weighted repeatedly can actually be pretty damn hard to untie, too.

Alexey Dynkin wrote:As you can see, there are some differences of opinion here...for me, the benefits of being able to untie a water knot with relative ease when I want to outweigh the extremely unlikely scenario of the knot creeping to the point of coming undone without me noticing it. Consider, too, that you should always have at least 2 fully independent strands in each TR anchor that you make, so that even in the (again, extremely unlikely) event that the water knot fails, you would still have a second strand on the un-knotted part of the runner holding you. Does that make sense?

+1

Take an anchor building class

Alexey Dynkin wrote: Edited: that being said, a water knot that has been weighted repeatedly can actually be pretty damn hard to untie, too.

I've never had a problem untieing a water-knot, even after repeated falls. It seems to break pretty easy.

I'd go with a water-knot with 6" tail. Real easy to tie, easy to inspect to make sure it is correct and it's pretty bomber. The creep of 0.35inch per 100 load cycles should make you feel pretty damn secure.

I like using webbing for TR anchors that don't see much movement across any sharp edges. I'd rather use a static rope or some dyneema slings (more resistance to abrasion) but other than that, webbing is easy to work with and bomber.

If all I have is webbing and the route traverses around a bit (ie, the master point of the anchor will want to move left to right) I will use a sliding x system WITH limiter knots, very easy to do.

I would think a double fisherman's knot in 1" webbing would be awfully hard to dress resulting in lots of bends and twists in the webbing, but I don't know as I have always used the water knot for webbing. I always use the double fisherman's with cord.

hi,

you mentioned that the webbing is tubular and that you would like to do something about
the ends:

a.) do not close the loop at first and just tie the knot of your preference; do not tighten it yet.
b.) next, close the loop by feeding one end _into_ the other: open the tubular webbing at one end such that it really forms an open tube; feed the other end into this tube.
c.) now, move your knot over to where the webbing is doubled.

the advantage of this is: no loose ends; very high knot friction
the disadvantage is: no visual confirmation that the inner end is long enough, you have to feel it.

fyi, I never experienced any slippage at all and the slings were fine for many years of climbing until I cut them up to use the webbing for something else. also, make sure that your final length is standard like 60cm or 120cm. it is annoying if one sling in your rack is a bit off in length.

have fun, best beaki

Scott E. wrote:I would think a double fisherman's knot in 1" webbing would be awfully hard to dress resulting in lots of bends and twists in the webbing, but I don't know as I have always used the water knot for webbing. I always use the double fisherman's with cord.

Double fisherman isn't as good as a water knot for webbing (I have done them before and i think it would hold, but water knot is the preferred method). Fisherman is my favorite knot but i always use water knot if I need to put webbing together.

Scott E. wrote:I would think a double fisherman's knot in 1" webbing would be awfully hard to dress resulting in lots of bends and twists in the webbing, but I don't know as I have always used the water knot for webbing. I always use the double fisherman's with cord.

Being that I've tied it hundreds and hundreds of times, it is no more of hassle than tieing my shoes....you know, the ones with laces...lol