looking to hire a local crag expert
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dates: April 6, 7 or 8 |
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Call Jackson Hole Mountain Guides Las Vegas. Hiring anyone without a guiding permit is like taking food off of someones plate not to mention illegal. Literally. |
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chad umbel wrote:Call Jackson Hole Mountain Guides Las Vegas. Hiring anyone without a guiding permit is like taking food off of someones plate not to mention illegal. Literally.Yep. Well said Chad. josh |
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Please also consider the American Alpine Institute. |
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taking food off someone's plate? i can't afford to pay thousands of dollars to get guide certified and i'm hungry, too. really my stomach just grumbled. |
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When people pirate, or try to hire pirate guides, it does hurt those who have gone through the proper channels. |
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i see. well, we are very experienced so we don't need a guide in the traditional sense. more of a climbing 'buddy' who knows the area well. not sure what kind of legal distinction there is but if it means we bring our own equipment then we can do that. |
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Ari Salomon wrote:i see. well, we are very experienced so we don't need a guide in the traditional sense. more of a climbing 'buddy' who knows the area well. not sure what kind of legal distinction there is but if it means we bring our own equipment then we can do that. i'll look at that url. thanks for your comments.The distinction is made as soon as you pay a person, according to the parks. $60 isn't enough to motivate most people anyway. Perhaps offering to buy someone a nice dinner and a beer in town might help you find someone who is simply nice enought and willing to show you around though. Never been a problem for me to go somewhere and find folks that will show me around for free. I offer to buy the beer, carry the gear, and put some gas in the tank. Not everything has to be about the money. |
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Is that truly illegal or just a dick move to hire an unofficial guide? Is there a specific point at which it become illegal? |
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JLP wrote:This is especially common with euros bringing someone from their homeland who speaks their language.And Eruos are regularly caught by places like Denali National Park, which will allow them to show up and then deny them access to the mountain. Tons of money spent on plane tickets without ever even getting on the mountain... Those of us who are guides have spent considerable time going through the proper channels to be legitimate. From a legal perspective, the person who hires the pirate guide is unlikely to get in trouble, but depending on the land manager, the pirate guide can get in a fair amount of trouble. It could be as little as a fine or it could be something that presents considerable legal problems. For example, an American who pirate guides in Canada could get permanently expelled from the country. And FYI, in places like Red Rock, guides regularly get experienced climbers who are just looking for solid partners that know the area. Jason |
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Tony B wrote: The distinction is made as soon as you pay a person, according to the parks. $60 isn't enough to motivate most people anyway. Perhaps offering to buy someone a nice dinner and a beer in town might help you find someone who is simply nice enought and willing to show you around though. Never been a problem for me to go somewhere and find folks that will show me around for free. I offer to buy the beer, carry the gear, and put some gas in the tank. Not everything has to be about the money.Clearly hiring an unlicensed guide in public lands is illegal (actually it is a felony since it is on federal land). Although the libertarian in me thinks that you should be able to hire whoever you want, I'm not advocating breaking the law. That being said, at what point are you hiring someone? Isn't offering to buy them dinner and a beer in exchange for a service the same thing as paying them a few dollars? Also, I doubt anyone would "work" for $60/day. Would it be legal to say "Hey, we are going to Vegas for a few days and would like to climb. We don't feel like bringing all our gear, so would someone be willing to rent us their gear for $60/day... oh, and if you know the area, we would appreciate it if you would show us around." I realize this is a tangent, I'm just curious exactly how commercial activity is defined. After all, I assume if someone offered to rent my rack for $60/day, I wouldn't be committing a crime if I took the money (and of course reported it on my taxes) and they then took my rack to public lands. Along those same lines, if you take the guy's money and then he gets hurt during the trip, do you automatically assume any legal liability you would not have had if you were just climbing with a buddy? After all you didn't sign any contract (nor did they sign any waiver). |
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...this seems to be as good a thread as any to lose my MP Forum virginity. For years now, I've just been passively watching from the sidelines, immensely enjoying the Killis posts, and monitoring topics that may be pertinent to my job or my employer. |
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Im surprised people are so upset. It's kind of like renting a crashpad. Lighten' up Francis. Come to Boulder, I'd be happy to. Its not the money, its showing nice people a beautiful area. For a tip. I hope someone will help the guy out. |
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Mark, |
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Hey guys, |
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Killis Howard wrote:Wow, can't believe I missed this one. I find it interesting that we're getting into the touchy subject of what the BLM can, will, and is trying to enforce. I remember there was a preliminary bolt count project going on a couple of years ago, the guys hired to do so openly spoke of telling the BLM what they wanted to hear, going climbing for fun and billing hours, and fudging info from the (then) highly unreliable collection of Red Rock Guidebooks. I see guides working all the time in Red Rock that are not associated in any way with the permit holders here. Most don't even bother to BS or squirm when confronted. For better or worse, it happens. Mostly worse, it seems. And last time I saw a BLM official outside of a parking lot at Red Rock, he was chucking baseball sized rocks at bushes to scare out the birds...which didn't exist. And YES, he was in uniform at the time. Wacky and sad. Guy looked like he belonged on an iron lung more than a trail. Mark, if you're not careful, you'll end up casting pearls before swine. Take that one from my personal experience. I do appreciate my fan letters, though.Word. This is something of an odd topic for me to comment on because I'm one of the guys in uniform so to speak (for the record I'm not a boob) but last time I was in Red Rocks, just a month ago, I asked the gate attendant about which annual pass would best suit my needs. He said some things that didn't make sense, so I asked another question, he said some more things that made less sense, so I tried to explain to him some basic factual points (the forest service is not under the dept of the interior, etc.) this is when he explained to me that I had no idea what I was talking about. In the end I gave him $20 and drove away... what can you do. But yea, it's a weird world out there, and not all feds are morons. Some definitely are. As for poaching a climbing guide... there are 10^9 more important issues to worry about. |
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Jfoley wrote: Before commenting on paying for guiding ask yourself what you do for a living and ask yourself what it would be like if you offered you services for free or a third the cost. Professional Climbing guide services offer a viable product which cost almost as much to LEGALLY maintain as it makes in profit.Well if someone could do my job for 1/3 the price then I would expect people to go to that guy. Now a certified climbing guide is almost certainly going to be worth more than a random $60 hire off of MP; you get what you pay for. It's Ari's money (and life) and either way he wants to do it doesn't bother me. |
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Mark Limage wrote:...this seems to be as good a thread as any to lose my MP Forum virginity. For years now, I've just been passively watching from the sidelines, immensely enjoying the Killis posts, and monitoring topics that may be pertinent to my job or my employer. When I saw this thread posted two days ago, I wondered if anybody was going to bite. I certainly wasn't going to touch it. But now that some of the experts have weighed in, well, hell, I kinda feel like stirring up some shit. How can you take seriously some clueless climber "looking to hire a local crag expert" that offers $60/day and more if you provide transpo? You can't. Ari, you get what you pay for. I hope you have a safe, enjoyable day in the Red Rock and for sure, "multi-pitch would be great"...a heck of a deal. I wonder what you do for a living. Maybe you're the Ari Salomon I just googled that is a "graphic designer and fine art photographer working in San Francisco."posterity speaking from the posterior |
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Piracy aside, do you really want to trust your life to some yahoo you met over the internet? For sure, most people who find partners on MP are fine, but you never know. With an AMGA certified guide, you WILL know. |
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The info in this thread immensely valuable! Traveling to hike/climb at Red Rock late March. Will check out AAI for guide. Experience mostly gym 5.10 comfort, some outdoor Devils lake and North Carolina, Big Bradley Falls/Pigsta area. Late March mornings recommended with heat?? As much as hot sounds awesome from frozen wisconsin, acclimatization might be painful . |