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Advice: CCC or Boulder Canyon or something else?

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Mark E Dixon wrote: Tony I think you are totally wrong on this one. Toproping single pitch sport routes should be done on one's own quick draws, but cleaning should only be done on a lower. I have asked multiple route developers about this and the universal response has been that lowering is safer and preferred. Too many people have been dropped when there's a misunderstanding about rap vs lower. So just lower.
This is ludicrous. Nobody has been dropped by their partner while rapping, ever! No communication is needed to boot. With lowering, communication must be crystal clear. I don't get why you keep making these false statements.

Cleaning steep routes is another story. Lowering may be the best option.

Carry on.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Greg D wrote: This is ludicrous. Nobody has been dropped by their partner while rapping, ever! No communication is needed to boot. With lowering, communication must be crystal clear. I don't get why you keep making these false statements. Cleaning steep routes is another story. Lowering may be the best option. Carry on.
I know you and I have had this discussion before.
I understand why you want to rap. On some routes it's feasible and you maintain control.
In general, I figure if someone like Phil Powers can get dropped then any of us can get dropped and I think the safer course is to have a single practice which works for slabby routes as well as steep ones. That would be lowering.
Chris Cavallaro · · Lone Tree, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 151

Cleaning steep (or wandering) routes is best done lowering not on rappel, for me.

If I am expecting my partner to lower me for most of the day on steep routes, then we become accustom to consistently lower off of all routes when cleaning to not have to question every time.

If if trust my belay partner, it's so much easier for him to lower, then me to rap, so I can focus on cleaning. I have seen peeps become complacent rapping with their hand right next to the belay device, for example, when the rope isn't directly under them with a draw to clean off to their side.
Just my opinion.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Mark E Dixon wrote: I know you and I have had this discussion before. I understand why you want to rap. On some routes it's feasible and you maintain control. In general, I figure if someone like Phil Powers can get dropped then any of us can get dropped and I think the safer course is to have a single practice which works for slabby routes as well as steep ones. That would be lowering.
Sure, a single practice sounds good, especially if you climb with the same people all the time. But some people climb with new partners often.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mark E Dixon wrote: Tony I think you are totally wrong on this one. Toproping single pitch sport routes should be done on one's own quick draws, but cleaning should only be done on a lower. I have asked multiple route developers about this and the universal response has been that lowering is safer and preferred. Too many people have been dropped when there's a misunderstanding about rap vs lower. So just lower.
Well, for starters you totally misunderstood me.
By "cleaning" I was referring to the anchor that your draws were through. The draws prior can be cleaned by a follower while following.

But you and I are entitled to a disagreement.

And we can both back that up with something:
I'll match your "I have asked multiple route developers about this and the universal response has been"
with a "well, talk to the guys who are trying to replace all the worn out anchors everywhere." We've got 10,000's of anchors in boulder and they are slowly getting used up...
And if they were all meant to be lowered off, then explaining the one with rap hangers (that you can't lower off of) gets pretty difficult.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mark E Dixon wrote: I know you and I have had this discussion before. I understand why you want to rap. On some routes it's feasible and you maintain control. In general, I figure if someone like Phil Powers can get dropped then any of us can get dropped and I think the safer course is to have a single practice which works for slabby routes as well as steep ones. That would be lowering.
Wait a minute... someone being lowered off gets dropped and that's your rationale for saying it is safer to lower off?
jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
mountainproject.com/v/10671…

Worn anchor, Clear Creek.

I still can't get over the idea that it is too hard to tell your belayer you are rappelling to make it safe. And regardless, if that IS the case, then you SHOULD rappel because that is the only way you will avoid being dropped by your partner.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Tony B wrote: Wait a minute... someone being lowered off gets dropped and that's your rationale for saying it is safer to lower off?
Either rappelling or lowering can be done safely. But sometimes doing one, sometimes the other opens the chance for unneeded miscommunication. Lowering is always possible. Rapping is possible only if the route is straight up and not very steep.

I think it's safer to just lower and not take the risk of misunderstanding each other.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Greg D wrote: Sure, a single practice sounds good, especially if you climb with the same people all the time. But some people climb with new partners often.
I've met many of my partners via MP. Until I know them, I make sure I hold onto the down rope before I trust them to lower me. And if they insist on rapping, I don't climb with them a second time. Even if they are otherwise great climbers and great people. Just like I wouldn't climb again with someone who ridiculed a partner knot check.

I'm not the crag police though and recognize other folks have different partner requirements and different approaches.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Tony B wrote: Well, for starters you totally misunderstood me. By "cleaning" I was referring to the anchor that your draws were through. The draws prior can be cleaned by a follower while following. But you and I are entitled to a disagreement. And we can both back that up with something: I'll match your "I have asked multiple route developers about this and the universal response has been" with a "well, talk to the guys who are trying to replace all the worn out anchors everywhere." We've got 10,000's of anchors in boulder and they are slowly getting used up... And if they were all meant to be lowered off, then explaining the one with rap hangers (that you can't lower off of) gets pretty difficult.
I think we are talking about the same thing, lowering through the anchors by the last climber up a route.

I very much appreciate your efforts Tony, in bolt replacement and general stewardship locally.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but aren't the vast majority of bolt replacements being done for protection bolts rather than anchor bolts, and mostly for either corrosion or because the in situ bolts aren't up to modern standards?

There are certainly some anchor bolts in the area that get worn (e.g. the photo jason.cre found) but typically that's because the bolt selected was a poor choice, such as an open or cold shut. A rapid link and a little chain would solve any such problems.

Finally, what do you mean by your last sentence? I can't think of any sport routes locally with anchors that don't allow a lower. But you've climbed a lot more of them than I have!
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Mark E Dixon wrote: I've met many of my partners via MP. Until I know them, I make sure I hold onto the down rope before I trust them to lower me. And if they insist on rapping, I don't climb with them a second time. Even if they are otherwise great climbers and great people. Just like I wouldn't climb again with someone who ridiculed a partner knot check. I'm not the crag police though and recognize other folks have different partner requirements and different approaches.
So let's see. Someone insists on rapping which eliminates the deadly communication error and the lowered off the end of the rope gig which both have happened several times in recent years in clear creek alone and you won't climb with them again. Ok, at least we now know you are bonkers.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Mark E Dixon wrote: I can't think of any sport routes locally with anchors that don't allow a lower.
Hmm, I haven't either on the local sport routes, but now & then I encounter those fat Metolius hanger abominations. Thing is anything you are not supposed to lower off of also makes it that much harder to pull the rope.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Greg D wrote: So let's see. Someone insists on rapping which eliminates the deadly communication error and the lowered off the end of the rope gig which both have happened several times in recent years in clear creek alone and you won't climb with them again. Ok, at least we now know you are bonkers.
I'm not worried about YOU getting dropped if you rap. I'm worried that you might think I will rap and drop me.

Most people already know that I'm bonkers. But I still don't want to get dropped.

@ reboot- those fat hangers are awful, hopefully they will all disappear as Tony does his good work.
jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10
Mark E Dixon wrote: I'm not worried about YOU getting dropped if you rap. I'm worried that you might think I will rap and drop me.
The irony, of course being that rapping would be the safest thing to do to prevent any situation of your partner dropping you.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
jason.cre wrote: The irony, of course being that rapping would be the safest thing to do to prevent any situation of your partner dropping you.
Try rapping off Y2K. Or Nevermore. Or Flying Beast...
Rigggs24 · · Denver, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

If cleaning an overhanging sport route and your the last climber and there is still gear on the route, then ya, lowering can be safer and better. If the last climber followed the route on top rope, there shouldnt be any gear to clean but the anchors...you should rap. I dont understand this lower at all times thing. Doesnt make much sense.

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

The East Colfax area in CCC has a lot of routes in the grade range you're looking for. It's near the top of the canyon, hence relatively high, and gets morning shade.

Jim T · · Colorado · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 469
Mark E Dixon wrote: And if they insist on rapping, I don't climb with them a second time.
Really? Or are you exaggerating to make a point?
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mark E Dixon wrote: Either rappelling or lowering can be done safely. But sometimes doing one, sometimes the other opens the chance for unneeded miscommunication. Lowering is always possible. Rapping is possible only if the route is straight up and not very steep.
Lowering is always possible if you want to leave gear, but there are MANY types of anchors that you can not lower off of without rope damage.
Even if you have a point, your support of it is factually incorrect.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mark E Dixon wrote: Correct me if I'm mistaken, but aren't the vast majority of bolt replacements being done for protection bolts rather than anchor bolts, and mostly for either corrosion or because the in situ bolts aren't up to modern standards?
Yes, dozens a week are replaced for that reason too, and BTW- in terms of bolt replacements, my contributions have been financial/logistical and minimal in terms of time. Matt R, Matt S, Greg G, Jason H, Bruce H, Joe C, Lenny M, Greg B, and others are the folks pouring a lot of time into it. (I tend to be more into events, logistics, and trail/access work, but I digress...) There are both bad bolts for pro, bad bolts at anchors, and bad hangers at anchors. Sherwood forest had some nasty worn hangers at the top. The sport routes at the right side of the Happy Hour Crag just got retooled (bad bolts at anchors and hangers both).

Mark E Dixon wrote: There are certainly some anchor bolts in the area that get worn (e.g. the photo jason.cre found) but typically that's because the bolt selected was a poor choice, such as an open or cold shut. A rapid link and a little chain would solve any such problems.
Yeah- "shuts" are a bad idea for several reasons. Sherwood forest was a prime example. People are forever lowering off them and the forces are all wrong and the wear is a very serious issue.

Mark E Dixon wrote: There are certainly some anchor bolts in the area that get worn (e.g. the photo jason.cre found) but typically that's because the bolt selected was a poor choice, such as an open or cold shut. A rapid link and a little chain would solve any such problems. Finally, what do you mean by your last sentence? I can't think of any sport routes locally with anchors that don't allow a lower. But you've climbed a lot more of them than I have!
The following anchors allow a lower, but are "non-serviceable" without messing with the bolt or sawing them off. These are common, and the problem is not limited to these. I can provide more. Tonnere Tower has a few routes with the mated bent flat metal kind that will eat a rope within yards of mussy hooks on other anchors.


Anything with an AL ring is right there in that group as well...
Admittedly, these are not all sport routes. But again, unless a person strictly climbs steep sport, a mix of techniques is required already.

Hopefully we can all agree that the WORST practice of all is when a leader goes up a route, threads the anchor in case nobody else makes it up, so the rope can just be pulled, and then proceeds to have a lot of following minions gang-bang the thing with see-saw topropes and lowering off all of them. There is no quicker death for a hanger!

Mark E Dixon wrote: Try rapping off Y2K. Or Nevermore. Or Flying Beast...
I or a partner has rapped the latter of the two, but I'm unfamiliar with the former. Leader leads, followers cleans and raps. No issue there. This is a problem if you are the only one doing the route though, true...
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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