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Footwork: looking vs feeling

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Jon Nelson wrote:So, there are two mysteries here: 1) Why resetting the hands seems to help, and 2) Why most people who responded to Mathias's post recommend against resetting the feet, particularly in the case in which one's shoes are soft enough to feel the rock.
There are two reasons: 1. no shoes are soft enough to feel the rock like your hands. You cannot compare the sensitivity of your hands with your feet unless you're climbing bare feet (and even then your hands will still be more sensitive). 2. With the exception of heelhooks, toe hooks, or any sort of hooking motion with your feet, you're generally in position to look at the top of your foothold. It's the opposite for handholds: unless have a mantle or gaston, you're never in the position to look at the top of your handhold.

So yes, I almost always feel around with my hands on a handhold to find the best spot, because I generally cannot see where the best spot is. If there's a way to always inspect my handholds closely before I reach for it, then maybe I wouldn't need to do that. Sometimes a handhold can even be "hidden", due to the angle of the rock, your body position, the coloring of the rock, etc. It often pays to feel around with your hands and I find better holds that way quite often. This is especially true when I'm climbing outside, less so on plastic when all the holds are colorful and protruding, I can generally guess (or remember) where is the best spot to grab on plastic.

Also, when you're feeling around with your hands, hopefully you're doing it while putting most of your weight on your feet. When you're feeling around with your feet though, most likely you're putting more weight on your hands, which will tire you out sooner.

I don't subscribe to the particular idea of "quiet feet" either, because sometimes kicking your toes along the wall (not dragging it) does help in getting some momentum. I focus more on placing my feet with precision, "quiet feet" is just a side effect of that.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Jplotz: I'm trusting the rubber more every time I go out. But I may start looking at drones.... just in case.

bearbreeder: Thanks for the video. Very inspiring. Regarding smearing on crystals and nubs etc. I tend to use the actual *ball* of my foot for that. It's always seemed more stable in softer shoes than any other point of my foot. So I tend to put the inside of my foot to the rock face and *feel* for the crystal or nub through my shoe. When I have to backstep I'll use the ball on the pinky toe side. This is probably sub-optimal but has so far produced the best results (not that it's very impressive).

I suppose a stiffer shoe could work better though. Stiff or not is relative to the weight you're push down with.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Try downclimb technical less than vertical climbs outside, especially slab

I guarantee youll be feeling for quite a few of yr footholds

Or climbing by headlamp ...

Its a good skill to have

;)

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

Always look down at your foot placements. Don't just slap your foot down. It's like catching a ball....follow your feet with your eyes all the way onto the hold. Then, rely on feel.

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
aikibujin wrote:with your feet, you're generally in position to look at the top of your foothold. It's the opposite for handholds: unless have a mantle or gaston, you're never in the position to look at the top of your handhold.
Yes that's a key difference between handholds and footholds, perhaps the most significant one.

A refinement is that since my fingers have much more freedom of articulation than my toes (inside a shoe), there are lots of different ways to arrange them around or inside a hold. I'm thinking especially of richly pocketed limestone, where I can't tell which pocket up there is best (or at least good enough) without feeling inside -- and then sometimes discovering a mini-pocket that makes all the difference. So on pocketed limestone, the way it works for me is, first I feel around up there to find some usable hold, then immediately feel inside to find a way to improve it.

Adjusting feet -- sometimes (often?) in interesting outdoor climbing the foot is used in some way that works only in combination with diagonal or sidepull or undercling forces from the hands. So I have to place my foot (by looking) and then "feel" if the friction is going to "work" as part of a total 3-dimensional body configuration.
I'm sure some of you just know in advance what will work, but for me I often have to actually place my foot (and whole body) into that configuration to help me feel if I believe in it or not -- or if a modification of my foot will improve it.

Ken
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Well, looking as I place my feet and trusting my placements is really paying off. I just went out with a good friend, last minute, and led a 5.10a/b sport route called Dynamite. I didn't onsight it because I was freaking terrified by the time I got to the third bolt and asked for a take to calm down. But I didn't fall at any point on the pitch. I did a little feeling with my feet when I really couldn't see. But I've got much more faith in my footwork now. I was even standing on my big toes here and there.

Thanks to everyone for all the information and advice. This is the hardest route I've led without a fall so far.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Bill Czajkowski wrote: Unless you're doing it with the side of your foot, where I suppose the side of the ball or toe joint may be used, edging is normally done on the tips of your toes.
More like the inside edge of your big toe. Pointing feet straight into the rock ("tips of the toes" note - plural) is rarely optimum, unless you're wearing rigid crampons.

Here's a good example of what works well:

https://vimeo.com/32117058
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
Mathias wrote:Thanks to everyone for all the information and advice. This is the hardest route I've led without a fall so far.
Awesome! Good stuff. When I started really learning what I could get away with when placing my feet I ended up just trying to place them on everything. I started falling a lot. And I mean everything. I was wrist deep in an Eldo handcrack when I switch to placing my feet on the wall instead of in the crack. I found out exactly how small of an edge I could get my foot on and still have it be useful. I would edge slabs that I didn't need to. Use the smallest holds. Anything I hadn't done with my foot, I tried to. That wild and chaotic couple of months led to the largest grade increase ever, which supposedly quantifies skill.

Only because it is a feeling and you mentioned in your last post, don't fear the fall. Falls on 10- and below is insanely scary compared to higher grades. So many ledges and blah blah blah. I have this strongly held belief that anyone who is a physically fit person and a climber can climb 5.11. The only thing holding people back is a large block. Don't put the 5.11 on the pedestal.

If you don't look up and see a sea of rock and fun movements, have your partners pick the routes for you to climb. Or do it in some way that you don't know the rating until the end of the day. I had been falling off 10/10- repeatedly prior to my first 11 onsight. The only difference that day is I had left the guidebook at home, and we just climbed whatever we wanted. When I got back home I found out that I had onsighted an 11a for a warm up, and the stuff I thought was 10+/11- turned out to be 11+/12-. It was all a mental block that disappeared completely under the ignorance of my peers opinions about the crag combined with the confidence of success. I met with similar success when I told my friend that a particular 11 was a 5.9. He made it to 10/11 bolts without issue. This is also a guy that never, ever, climbs 5.10. Well, he does now.
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

When I coach the youth team kids, I hammer into them repeatedly "watch your foot all the way onto the hold, until it is placed on the hold exactly where it needs to be, and begin to press into it before you look up for the next handhold". This is one of two things I reinforce over and over during their warmups (the other being breathing rhythm and connecting that breathing with the movement). Do it long enough during the warmups, when the climbing is easy enough that you can totally focus on it, and it will eventually be habit that stays with you when the climbing is hard.

Most people will look up before their foot is completely placed and weighted, especially when the pump starts to set in, and especially on plastic (or people climbing at an easier level outdoors where the footholds are relatively large and they can still get away with it).

When you get into truly hard, thin footwork on more or less vertical (or sub-vert) terrain, stiff edging shoes are almost mandatory. "Feel" becomes more about feeling whether your ankle is cocked in such a way that once you start to really use that foothold/stand up on it, you can do so without having to adjust the foot. People get used to plastic, where even the smallest footholds usually allow you to rotate on the hold...do that on thin granite and you'll pop immediately. The stiff shoes you will want mostly eliminate the "sensitivity"/ability to actually feel the hold through the shoe.

On friction slab, the "feel" for me is about the feeling of keeping my heels low and a fairly even distribution of weight pressure throughout the forefoot (trying to maximize the contact area of rubber). It's not about feeling the actual hold/divot/crystal/texture through the shoe.

Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196
Gunkiemike wrote: Here's a good example of what works well: vimeo.com/32117058
Well, so some top climbers do have success with foot-adjustments and feeling around with the feet -- a bit like the hand-finger adjustments. Thanks for the video.
aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Jon Nelson wrote: Well, so some top climbers do have success with foot-adjustments and feeling around with the feet -- a bit like the hand-finger adjustments. Thanks for the video.
I watched that video and got the completely opposite conclusion. I didn't think Beth was feeling around with her feet at all, she was doing exactly what we've been saying: she watched her footholds like a hawk when she placed her feet. She did bounce her heel excessively on her first two tries, it's a sign that she was not trusting her foothold, a nervous habit even the best climbers in the world still make. You notice both times she bounced her left heel excessively on the 4th move before committing, she came off. Watch carefully on her third try: she bounced her heel once on that left foot on the 4th move, caught herself, reset her left foot (while watching her placement), then stood up on that left foot without moving it at all. That's when she actually was able to send the problem.

I was actually out bouldering today on some problems that are similar to what she was doing: slightly off vertical granite boulders that are just featureless on the first glance. You're edging on little crystals, smearing on the shallowest depressions, and hooking fingernails on large grain of granite for handholds. On stuff like that you have to hold your feet perfectly steady on a foothold, any sort of foot movement and they just slip right off. There is no room for feeling around and making little adjustments after you weigh them.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
aikibujin wrote: then stood up on that left foot without moving it at all. That's when she actually was able to send the problem.
That was not a simple stand-up, she ultimately succeeded because she executed the dynamic weight shift perfectly, not due to improved footwork per se: she didn't move her left foot on the other attempts when actually executing the move. She did reset multiple times, but she needed less of that as she got more familiar with the hold.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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