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Footwork: looking vs feeling

Original Post
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

After reading something slim wrote about watching your foot as you place it on a hold something clicked in my mind: I feel more comfortable in a pair of thin soled Moccasyms than in a stiff soled pair of Anasazi Guides. And now I know why. The Guides have better edging , and are more secure in pockets and flared hand (and larger) cracks where I'm relying on the stiff sole. But I still feel less secure in them than the moccs. And it's all because I can *feel* my foot placement in the moccs far better.

Clearly I need to practice watching as I place my foot, because I know I don't do this automatically. But even when I do this in the Guides, I keep looking back to check my foot is where I left it. It reminds my of climbing with numb hands, where I'd place my hand and then keep checking it because I couldn't feel it and didn't know if it was shifting.

I've also noticed that even when I look as I place my foot when wearing the moccs, I'll often shift my foot a little to where it feels more secure. It looks good when I place it, but doesn't feel right.

How important is feel to your footwork?

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

You are talking about the “sensitivity” of the shoes. People who climb in two or more different pairs will usually realize, like you did, that some shoes are more sensitive than others.

Mathias wrote:I've also noticed that even when I look as I place my foot when wearing the moccs, I'll often shift my foot a little to where it feels more secure. It looks good when I place it, but doesn't feel right. How important is feel to your footwork?
That’s actually a bad habit to develop. As long as you have unhindered view of your foothold, you should be able to tell where the best placement is by looking at it. Once you’ve placed your foot on the best part of the hold, most of the time there is no reason to change it or move it. Exception is when you need to transition from one technique to another as part of the sequence, for example, rotating from an inside edge to a backstep (outside edge) or drop knee, or going from a heelhook to a high step. In that case, you often can still watch your foot as you make the transition. You shouldn’t be feeling around with your foot once you’ve placed it no matter how sensitive the shoe is. No climbing shoes will be sensitive enough to feel the minute details in the rock (you need to be climbing in bare feet to do that). On a hard friction slab, for example, your foothold may just be a small divot that’s barely perceivable even visually, or it may just be a few grains of crystals that you hope can dig into the rubber and hold a smear. You will not be able to feel these with your shoes on.

The foothold not “feeling right” to you is probably the result of any of the three: 1. You didn’t actually watch your foot as you placed it on the best part of the hold (even if you think you did); 2. You are not trusting your shoes or the foothold; 3. You’re not applying force correctly to the hold you’re using (for example, trying to edge on a smear).

So basically, “feeling for your foothold” is not important, and should really be discouraged.
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

Feeling the rock through my shoe used to be a big thing for me. I'd have insane issues trusting my feet on anything that wasn't a good solid edge. That was with Mythos. I purchased a pair of Katanas and didn't have the Mythos anymore so I forced myself to climb those tiny edges and smears without feeling them. I found I was falling off a lot because I kept trying to find that edge that looked better than everything that was there.

Then I learned to just trust the feet, no matter where I placed them. Its more or less blind trust. Bypassing that mental barrier opened up grades I had originally thought would take years to get to. I think trusting your feet is far more important than feeling the rock now. If you just let go and trust the rubber, a whole wide world will be open to you.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

The latest version of Anasazi have been redesigned. I have not got a chance to try out the new version. They feel much stiffer and are narrower but slightly longer more pointed toe.

Just from trying them on my home wall i am not sure if they are going to smear as well as the old version but I have 3 old pairs i really need to stop being lazy and send off to be resoled.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I've also noticed (now I'm thinking about it) that when wearing the moccs and using small edges, I'll tend to use the ball of my foot (big toe's joint) rather than my big toe itself. I thought this was fine but... is this just wrong(?). With how flexible the moccs are, I just can't hold my weight well with the first bone of my big toe alone. The Guides are a different story; it's easier with them, but feels more precarious because I'm not used to it.

I get the feel I may just need to start over with my footwork. But if I do need to, better now than later.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

I won't say that looking at your feet is a bad habbit but I will say moving your feet after you have set them based on feel is a mistake. Also I will add that being aware of were your foot or any other body part is without looking is a very usefull skill and will up your climbing ability by letters and grades. Many people I know practice first touch/blind hold use as an exercise. This is the complete inverse of the situation you were describing. I know that on hard slab if you start jockeying you feet around you will fall sooner than if you had left your foot alone in most cases and on hard overhanging sport routes it will bleed power and endurance out of you like a running tap. Set it and forget it.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300


The ball of your foot is not the same as the big toe joint. The distance between the two is maybe less than an inch, but the difference is critical. I never edge on the ball of my foot. I edge right at the joint of my big toe. That’s basically about one inch or so from the very tip of my shoe, whereas the ball of my foot would be about another inch from that. I can think of a few reasons why you want to use the big toe joint instead of the ball of your foot: 1. It allows you to go tippy toe and gain a bit of reach; 2. It allows you to pivot on a small hold (going from inside edge to outside edge); 3. It allows you pull in with your toes on overhanging terrain. I also try not to edge right at the very tip of my shoe (I think it’s what you refer to as the first bone of your big toe), because my big toe is just not strong enough to hold that kind of levering force. In the rare instances when I’m forced to stand on the very tip of my big toe (little pockets, pointy edges in a miniature dihedral), my feet tire out really fast.

I think most climbers can always find some improvements in their footwork (or technique, or strength). Like Tony B said in the other thread, no one has perfect technique (or footwork, or strength). Right now I’m working on strengthening my toes, and getting better footwork on thin cracks.
Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Thanks for posting the image. Yes, I actually do use the ball of my foot to smear over mirco edges (especially on slab) when wearing the moccasyms. I use the joint of my big toe in the stiffer shoes though. I can't use the tip of my toe with either shoe.

I'll just have to practice with the moccs and get my feet a little stronger using the same techniques I use with the Guides. And train myself to place my feet more carefully and then not adjust them based on feel.

Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

Use the point of your toe too. The rubber is strong enough to hold your weight. From the big toe knuckle to the toe tip is the best edging area, IMO. You might only have a 1/16th inch of rubber between you and the rock. But it is enough!

tenpins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 30
Eliot Augusto wrote:Its more or less blind trust.
not any more than the 'blind trust' you put in that the rope will catch a fall.

I cant feel a thing in my mountaineering boots. But I edge in them all the time. And its bomber. Because the sole is designed for it. That isnt blind trust. thats knowing how to actually use equipment.

the good climbers Ive seen, and when Im climbing at my meager best, spend just as much time looking their feet onto holds as their hands. You're telling me that you actually just kind of scrape around with your shoes unti something 'feels right'?
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60
tenpins wrote: not any more than the 'blind trust' you put in that the rope will catch a fall. I cant feel a thing in my mountaineering boots. But I edge in them all the time. And its bomber. Because the sole is designed for it. That isnt blind trust. thats knowing how to actually use equipment. the good climbers Ive seen, and when Im climbing at my meager best, spend just as much time looking their feet onto holds as their hands. You're telling me that you actually just kind of scrape around with your shoes unti something 'feels right'?
Sometimes, sure. Most of the time, no. I've put my full body weight on the smallest of quartzite crystals or blankest section of sandstone and not fallen. I still surprise myself with where I can actually plant my foot and not fall. But I've definitely fought my way up a route looney toons style that was "clean".

I see where the next handhold is, and how I have to lean to get the most efficient use of my muscles. Then I put my foot in a general area, I do look for the best spot in that area. But then I stand up on it and trust no matter what that it is good. Sometimes I fall.
Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20
aikibujin wrote: The ball of your foot is not the same as the big toe joint. The distance between the two is maybe less than an inch, but the difference is critical. I never edge on the ball of my foot. I edge right at the joint of my big toe. That’s basically about one inch or so from the very tip of my shoe, whereas the ball of my foot would be about another inch from that. I can think of a few reasons why you want to use the big toe joint instead of the ball of your foot: 1. It allows you to go tippy toe and gain a bit of reach; 2. It allows you to pivot on a small hold (going from inside edge to outside edge); 3. It allows you pull in with your toes on overhanging terrain. I also try not to edge right at the very tip of my shoe (I think it’s what you refer to as the first bone of your big toe), because my big toe is just not strong enough to hold that kind of levering force. In the rare instances when I’m forced to stand on the very tip of my big toe (little pockets, pointy edges in a miniature dihedral), my feet tire out really fast. I think most climbers can always find some improvements in their footwork (or technique, or strength). Like Tony B said in the other thread, no one has perfect technique (or footwork, or strength). Right now I’m working on strengthening my toes, and getting better footwork on thin cracks.
Edging uses the edge of the shoe. Unless you're doing it with the side of your foot, where I suppose the side of the ball or toe joint may be used, edging is normally done on the tips of your toes. Ball of the foot and big toe joint sound like smearing. A stiffer, and/or down-turned shoe will help some with your feet getting tired. Each has its drawbacks.
Lynn Evenson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 60

Here's a very cool practice thing you can do that'll help your footwork. Okay two things.

One: climb a route that is not at your limit. The Rule is that you must use every foothold the way your foot lands on it. No pivoting, shifting, squishing,adjusting. If you're doing this in the gym, down climb too, observing the same rule.

Two: Again on a route well below your limit, climb looking only at your feet. Downclimb. Now climb the same route looking only at your hands.

Practicing one or both of these, even a couple of times at first will have a huge impact. Later on, if you feel like your footwork is sloppy on that particular day, you can either just remind yourself, or play The Game again enough to remind your feet of what and how to do.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Bill Czajkowski wrote: Edging uses the edge of the shoe. Unless you're doing it with the side of your foot, where I suppose the side of the ball or toe joint may be used, edging is normally done on the tips of your toes. Ball of the foot and big toe joint sound like smearing. A stiffer, and/or down-turned shoe will help some with your feet getting tired. Each has its drawbacks.
My bad there. Since we were talking about "edging", I just assumed that when I say "ball of the foot" or "big toe joint", everyone will know I'm actually talking about the (inside) edge closest to the ball of the foot, or closes to the big toe joint. Sorry about the confusion.

But I have to disagree with "edging is normally done on the tips of your toes". On certain holds you have no choice but to do that, but in general, I prefer to use the inside edge that's about half inch to an inch from the very tip of the shoe (the edge under the big toe joint). It is much less strenuous than standing on the tip of your toes. While stiffer shoes may help, why intentionally do it the hard way? It's like saying "grabbing a handhold is normally done with just your finger tips". It is possible to grab every hold using just the finger tips, on small holds that's the only way to do it. But when you can put more of your finger on a hold, why just use the finger tips?

And I do have stiff shoes for edging. I switch to them when I'm climbing stuff near my limit right now. But for easier climbs, I use a pair of pretty soft shoes as a way to strengthening my toes, so I don't have to rely so much on shoes.

Just to add a little story: someone at work (who is a much stronger climber than I am) told me that shoes don't make a huge difference for him anymore, since his feet have gotten so strong, he can pretty much climb in any rock shoes. I also started climbing a while back, I was young, I was pretty strong, and I climb some fairly hard routes in the softest pair of shoes I have, a pair of Evolvs. Then I had to take a few years off from climbing to get my life in order: get a real job, get married, buy a house, have a kid, etc. When I came back to climbing, I knew my grip strength was gone, so I started working on a hangboard. But I was also having a lot of trouble edging in my Evolvs, the pair I used to stand on credit card edges with. I knew my technique was still there (if a bit rusty), so what changed? Then I realized that whatever foot strength I had when I was climbing strong was also gone. Most climber don't think about this, but the longer and the harder you climb, the stronger your toes and your foot get. It's very similar to our fingers. Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I'll be edging on the tip of my big toe all the time and don't even think twice about it.
Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 8,196
Mathias wrote: I've also noticed that even when I look as I place my foot when wearing the moccs, I'll often shift my foot a little to where it feels more secure. ... How important is feel to your footwork?
aikibujin's reply: "So basically, “feeling for your foothold” is not important, and should really be discouraged."

I agree that one should learn to find the best foot placement, then hold the foot steady on it and trust the feet.

However, it is interesting that we do not do this with our hands.

I've long noticed, in looking at climbing videos, that top climbers almost always reset their hands after gaining a new handhold. When I first noticed this, I thought, well, that seems like a waste of energy. And yet every climber on a super hard route seems to do it, at least in the videos...

So, there are two mysteries here: 1) Why resetting the hands seems to help, and 2) Why most people who responded to Mathias's post recommend against resetting the feet, particularly in the case in which one's shoes are soft enough to feel the rock.

For 1), I would think that after hundreds or thousands of hours of climbing experience, a top climber would have learned how to judge the best way to put his or her hand on a handhold, and just keep it there. Apparently, there is still some benefit, physical or mental, to resetting the hand.

For 2), could the explanation be this idea that gets passed around (which I don't agree with) of aiming for "quiet feet"? It has long seemed to me that "fast feet" is a better recommendation, and if you move your foot fast, then you'll likely have some benefit for resetting it.
Jim6565 Brassell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 0

I'm no pro but the difference in feel and sensitivity between a shoe covered foot and one's fingers is, astronomical. I generally ignore the hands once they are placed, because I "know" it's good enough. Moving hands and fingers and readjusting is something I do on difficult problems or I'm sweating and need the best possible grip.

However, I don't really adhere to one dogma when is comes to feet. I try like hell to make a perfect placement just by looking, but, this doesn't always work. Not dragging your foot and constantly working the hold is hard on the shoe rubber and shortens the time between resoles.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

look when you can, feel when you have to :)

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Jon Nelson wrote: So, there are two mysteries here: 1) Why resetting the hands seems to help, and 2) Why most people who responded to Mathias's post recommend against resetting the feet, particularly in the case in which one's shoes are soft enough to feel the rock.
A perfect explanation is latching onto a hold and moving off of the hold have different optimal hand grip positions. Often that's exactly what these climbers are doing: changing grip in preparation for the next move. As for feet, well, if the foot hold is small/sloppy enough, there are plenty reasons to test them for friction, especially if your life is on the line.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Plenty of folks prefer a softer shoe as it allows em to feel the smears

You do need a slight change in technique as you cant simply place the tip of yr toe on an edge or crystal ... You need to roll onto it with more surface contact ... And initially the heel needs to drop more than a stiffer downturned shoe

To a large degree its personal preference as to what one prefers

Of course for certain climbs it does matter what shoes you use ... If yr doing 12+ pitchs of moderate hand cracks and slabs in tight downturned shoes sized for bouldering, youll be screaming in pain on the climb

For a good demostration of old school french footwork go here about 8 min in

youtu.be/X-G2NBkpTbY

;)

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I went to the gym Wednesday night to Boulder, took some different shoes and tried as hard as I could to watch where I was placing my feet, and to make those placements as precisely as possible. I still ended up pivoting on holds a little, though I was trying to lift my foot to reposition it as I went from inside to outside edge. I also caught myself fumbling without looking a couple time. But overall, I found a slight but noticeable improvement, not in my performance as such, but in the next effort required for a problem.

I did make some poor placements which I could feel, and so did adjust by feel a couple times. But when I did, it was to correct a mistake that I'd already made through a bad placement.

Regarding moving hands, I'll have to watch for that because I haven't paid much attention so far. I know I'll often feel a hold before I set my hand.

Jplotz · · Cashmere, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 1,315

"Then I learned to just trust the feet, no matter where I placed them. Its more or less blind trust. Bypassing that mental barrier opened up grades I had originally thought would take years to get to. I think trusting your feet is far more important than feeling the rock now. If you just let go and trust the rubber, a whole wide world will be open to you."

The best answer yet. If you don't trust the rubber, then you won't trust your foot hold. If you don't trust your feet, you'll be relegated to low angle 5.8 routes for the rest of your climbing career, grow bored with climbing, and start flying remote controlled drones in National Parks.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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