New Sport routes on Duncan's Ridge ?

I was thinking yesterday about the possibility of the NCCC collecting historical info on Duncan's Ridge, even if it only ever gets to a PDF format. And possibly a plaque of some sort at the top of the trail to give visiting climbers some of that information and history as a reminder to what came before. But it seems unlikely there's much information to be pulled together and would likely involve lots of discussion with those of previous generations, willing to take the time to share. Recorded history would go a long way to helping preserve the area.

I'd like to let those who've not found my comments to be to their liking know this: I respect the history of places such as Lumpy, Eldo, and many other classic areas. You better believe that when I climb a classic line I'm thinking about how hard it must have been for the FA, with the gear they had back then, venturing boldly into the unknown. To follow in the footsteps of the pioneers is something I don't take for granted at all. But I have to know the history to be able to enjoy that.

Meanwhile, Duncan's could be a safe and accessible little local crag to the newest generation of climbers, but also be safer, because we've all got to live our daily lives too. It's possible to appreciate the history and make it more user friendly at the same time. And so far the only history I'm really aware of is one of bolt chopping, which seems like the actions of a few who don't want to make it more convenient for people to climb there, as it would crowd up the crag.

I ran up to Duncan's shortly after sunrise before work this morning to see what the fuss was all about. I was pretty disturbed... Every line of new bolts and anchors are lines that have previously been soloed or TR'd (very safely I might add)

Poor form Ryan, Poor Form NCCC. Shame on you guys. I guess with the Miramont closure and renovation, you feel that there isn't enough bubble wrapped activity to keep folks safe and comfortable climbing.

There is a lifetime worth of NEW route development to be had in Northern Colorado, so it's really in poor taste to apply your bolting talents to an area that is essentially the home of North American Bouldering and an established consensus acceptance of style and ethic of folks that have been climbing at Duncan's for close to 40 years.

Admittedly, over the close to 15 years I've been climbing in the Fort Collins area, I've had a few sessions climbing at Duncans when I've been puckered, far above a crash pad, quite honestly wanting a belay or a bolt, where a resulting fall would result in a catastrophic injury, but in those instances I sacked up, or down-climbed and retreated to live to climb another day. In those instances, we don't strive to lower the standards of the climb by adding a bolt or anchor to meet our current level of skill or courage, we go home to train harder, dig deeper and raise our level of climbing to meet the demands of the climb. Particularly when there are a multitude of TR anchor options to be had at the rim.

I've done a fair bit of new routing in Colorado and Wyoming over the years and thought about some of the questions that you might have been asking yourself in the evaluating the decision to add bolts and new routes to Duncans:

My first question was around due diligence?

Who did you proactively reach out to and talk with? Were the FA'ers? Did NCCC vote? Did you consult with the land owners particularly the homeowners that live on Skyridge Lane? While they don't own the land that the climbs sit on, they can see climbers approaching from their front porch.

Is it for safety?
Perhaps, but I have well over 100+ days climbing in the Horsetooth area and have never had an accident and consider the crag to be perfectly acceptable in terms of safety. After all, climbing is an inherently dangerous activity, is it not?

Is it for convenience?
There are numerous TR anchors to be built by a competent climber with a basic rack and knowledge of rock-craft. If we cater to the lowest common denominator, where does it stop? Should we add an escalator from Centennial Ridge Road to the top of the Duncan's Ridge in the name of "accessibility"
If beginner climbers lacked the necessary hardware and knowledge to build clean top rope anchors, then there are much more convenient/safe/supportive places to learn to lead and top rope, where you can cut your teeth until you develop the proper skills to climb at Duncans.

Is it for style, improved access, or an updated ethic for the modern age?
If the NCCC has unilaterally decided that it is time to revise the style and ethic of the crag, then I hope you won't be surprised if someone decides to unilaterally chop the bolts, patch the holes and return the stone to the natural state. Were you applying your artistic and aesthetic vision to Duncans because you felt it was somehow an area that isn't able to realize its full, untapped potential for its previous 40 years of climbing activity?

What about the punks that applied their graffiti to Rotary Park, were just applying their artistic vision to the stone and we should just accept it as "modernization" that is part of the times?

Its a straw man argument to make this about lack of history being readily available. Oral tradition via word of mouth is some of the richest history that our community has.
Who did you seek out to ask about this history?
Did you offer to buy them a beer to seek out their thoughts as first ascentionists?
Did you look to any old magazines or old guide books?

Invoking your lack of knowledge or ignorance about the established ethics of a particular area is a sophomoric argument to justify a unilateral decision and selfish act.

Ryan - I'll seek you out next time I see you so that we can have a conversation over a beer. I know you mean well, but this is a poor application of resources, time, and the political/goodwill capital that the NCCC has built over recent years.

Its disappointing and I'd implore you to halt any of your forthcoming plans until you have a sit-down with Mark Wilford, Ken Duncan, Paul Heyliger, Jeff Giddings and some of the many others that have been climbing here before either of us were born....

Well said John... Just because someone gave you the right to bolt a 30ft cliff doesn't mean you should.

Ryan, you should take a step back and think about your actions and how you are representing the local climbing community, before you "create" any more routes at Duncan's ridge.

Invocation of, or claiming ignorance of the history of an area isn't a valid justification to erase the established ethic from present...

Source: Paul Heyliger, Fort Collins Bad Ass and First Ascensionist of hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of climbs in the region.

FCJohn: you definitely have some good points, and I appreciate the documentation. Thank you for sharing.

Can anyone speak to whether the NCCC has open meeting where the climbing community is welcome to attend? If so, how do I get on the mailing list? If not, perhaps they should. I've been to a couple fundraisers, but have no experienced any open discussion of the work they do.

Hi Everyone,

Sorry I am just getting on the bandwagon now.
Please feel free to send me a personal message to discuss any of this further.

The NCCC’s intention is to preserve and promote rock climbing at Duncan’s Ridge for generations to come…period.

Duncan’s Ridge has been a local climbing spot for many many years. It has a rich history of climbing extending back through many generations, all though very little of it has ever been accurately documented.

In recent years it has become neglected compared to other areas at Horsetooth Reservoir like Rotary Park or the Piano Boulders. One of NCCC’s major goals for 2015 is to give this area some proper conservation/stewardship.

We had a meeting with Larimer County specifically Mark Caughlan (March 2015) to discuss Duncan’s future.
The cliff is on Larimer County property and they have the authority to decide how it is managed.

We discussed the parking area, installing signage, the trail up the hill and the erosion caused by TR anchors.
In the past people have used long sections of webbing/rope tied to trees and boulders back from the cliff edge. Over the years this has caused tons of soil erosion, damage to the trees, and made some of the boulders loose/dangerous. We discussed all of these concerns with Larimer County and decided it would be best for the long term future of Duncan’s Ridge to install Top Rope anchors.

In addition, Ryan and I discussed installing an entry level sport route to help new climbers learn to lead climb.
Ryan took on the bolting efforts understanding that a minority portion of the community would likely be upset about these new anchors.
During the process Ryan has run into countless individuals who use the area regularly and praised his efforts to update the area.
Through this surge of motivation, Ryan continued to install TR anchors and lead bolts without full discussion/approval from NCCC Board.
I personally feel that Ryan went a bit overboard but only with the very best intentions.

Duncan’s sees a lot of traffic from beginner climbers wanting to break into outdoor rock climbing. Rock Climbers in the United States are a huge exploding user group that will need a lot of management in the coming years. Fort Collins is also undergoing a huge surge in growth and a lot of new climbers will be coming with it. Yes, most of these climbers will be coming from climbing gyms as their initial introduction to climbing. With Miramont’s update and the construction of Ascent Studio Climbing, there will be a much bigger influx of climbers who want to go sport climbing/bouldering outside as opposed to traditional, highball or solo climbing. This can be a hard reality for some climbers to face…but it is a reality we all have to be prepared for.

Personally I have been living and climbing in the Fort Collins area since 1998. I know most if not all of the old-dawgs and make it a point to understand all their different opinions and stances on climbing ethics. I have not asked most of them to be on the NCCC because I don’t want them to be bothered. Dealing with land managers and planning trail days is not high on many peoples list of “how to use my free-time”. I’m sorry that some people feel we stepped out of line and broke a code of ethic. But we truly feel the majority of the climbers using Duncan’s Ridge are new climbers that just want a safe place to learn how to be better climbers.

The NCCC is meant to be a voice for the Rock Climbing Community to NoCo land mangers and the public at large. As President I am completely responsible for any and all actions the NCCC takes in the Northern Colorado. If the majority of our community feels NCCC made a mistake I will submit my resignation and step-down as President immediately.

Again, please contact me directly and I will be happy to talk more about any of this.

thanks

Ben Scott
nococlimbing.org

I usually try to stay out of these things, but Duncan's Ridge is kind of sentimental for me as it played a part in my early development as a climber.

I don't think I really qualify as one of the "old guys", but also don't seem to fit with the newer generation of climbers. I learned to climb up at Rotary and Duncan's back in 2004. We were always able to find cracks for gear to set up top ropes on any of the routes up there. Yes the anchors were trickier than other spots at the reservoir, but that was the idea, it was part of the process of learning as you worked up to less obvious placements. It wasn't where you started, it was a place you earned with practice.

While I was living in Fort Collins, leading the Roof Route was almost a right of passage, an exam of sorts to prove yourself to the climbing circles I moved in. It was a way to more prove to ourselves what we were capable of, pulling that roof was a defined moment I won't forget, especially the confidence afterwards. If there's any route up there that I feel should have been left unbolted, it's that one. If the history of ethics was unknown for that line, maybe just look to the route page for it, and see the shot of it being lead on gear. That should have been enough.

Maybe not every crag close to a major climbing community should be more accessible. Some crags you need to work your way up to, they may be easy on the YDS, but one cannot discount the hard skills needed.

I've also always felt that when it comes to adding or removing bolts to a crag, it comes down to "respect the ethics of the first ascensionist". This bolting doesn't respect that, not the first, not the hundredth, etc. Sadly now the act is done, so climbers up there have the choice, do they take the easy path, clip these new bolts, knowing how many before them have moved over the same rock without them? Or, do they let the bolts sit and rust, while they train and practice to hold themselves to the previous standards and ethics, letting the bolts act as a monument to a hubris?

What's done is done, the act has been carried out. The could haves, would haves, should haves are all moot now. At this point its up to those younger/newer climbers, who those bolts were to meant to make the rock more accessible for, to decide what standard they will hold themselves to.

JKeller wrote: Anyone have any history on the recently bolted route called Out Of The Black? I'd love to hear the history of anyone climbing that face...

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/out-of-the-black/110470741

I know that I TR'd it and led it on gear as early back as fall of 2003 and soloed it in about 2005... I also know for a fact that wasn't the first to claim it.

For Ryan to have bolted this to claim as a FA is straight up revisionist history

JKeller wrote: There are obvious routes that can be protected traditionally and they have been left alone.

Like the Roof Route, which has been lead many times on gear?

When I first started to climb in this area, I found no issues finding natural gear placement for TR anchors. I can understand the need for some bolted anchors in some key areas to help preserve the area. It sounds like this mandate to protect the area was used to create a personal outdoor gym.

Ryan-Nelson wrote: I have lead all of the GRITSTONE style climbs at Duncans, and consider myself a traditionalist at heart. I did not bolt any traditional or Gritstone leads.

Ryan-Nelson wrote: The roof route only takes one piece of gear in the very corner of the climb. If you fell on lead you would shatter your legs into pieces.

I never said that it was safe lead, and it is probably not one that I would ever do. It is just a matter of respect to the style that it was first done.

It sounds like a chief goal of the project from NCCC's perspective was reducing erosion & wear on trees through the installation of TR anchors.

It seems like the community's chief backlash is against the installation of sport bolts.

So we have two issues on hand.

I haven't seen much said about the TR anchors- what do the old-timers here think of TR anchors to reduce erosion & tree damage?

I'm not an old timer, but reading around MP over time I've seen several crags switch to anchor bolts after decades of tree anchors decimated clifftop vegitation.

Patrick Shyvers wrote:It sounds like a chief goal of the project from NCCC's perspective was reducing erosion & wear on trees through the installation of TR anchors. It seems like the community's chief backlash is against the installation of sport bolts. So we have two issues on hand. I haven't seen much said about the TR anchors- what do the old-timers here think of TR anchors to reduce erosion & tree damage?

I'm interested to hear their opinions too. Personally I feel no deep desire to lead anything at DR (bolts or gear, though I have with gear). But TR anchors would make switching routes far quicker than trad anchors. More climbing, less fiddling around for a 40' route.

Ryan said "I'm swear i'm the only dude who's still climbing the Triple Tier sport routes as gear leads". What's this have to do with Duncans? i led ODK on gear and felt like it was a much better sport climb. Also, only odk had signs of someone else there before me and it was only 20 ft up. The rest of the cliff had zero signs of being aided. Is this what you are getting at, that this was a traditional spot before the bolts.

Anyways, I put in my time at Duncans and always felt that it was a toprope/highball area. i always visioned someone else before me climbing the same lines when i was climbing them, even though it was hard to tell if there was someone there before me.

Sure, there isn't really much written down on Duncans but it's more of a folklore I guess. I'm not a Ft.Collins local anymore but I still put in a lot of time in the poudre. So I feel I'm still part of the community up there. I think adding the anchors are probably a good thing up there(all though I think its good for beginners to learn how to build anchors and equalize them) and I'm sure the sport climbs are great and people really are joying them. It's just sad when things of the past change and get forgotten. (even though people are still wanting pics and proof that there was history there).

I'm sure Ryan feels bad and it was all in good intentions. I support the NCCC and feel they are making the right decisions on the whole Northern colorado area. This was a mistake. Should have been more vocal about I guess. I think the climbs should stay and when the next person who wants to bolt up there, make it like the flatiron council does and vote on it. Hate to see a bolt/chopping war go on.

Ryan-Nelson wrote: We talked about the anchors at two separate NCCC events, and no one piped up to say a damn thing.

I don't think this forum thread is about placing TR anchors near the top of the Roof Route with the loose blocks. I think it is about creating sport routes at Duncan's.

Ryan-Nelson wrote: Only beginners go here anymore, and I do not want them placing gear in sketchy blocks.

Only beginners, according to who? You'll still find me running laps there....
You seem to have a habit of making sweeping generalities and unilateral decisions without supporting data.

I appreciate your concern for the safety of new climbers and their developing skills, but climbing is a inherently dangerous and risky activity, is it not? Should we also then comfortize the sharp edges on jugs? What about improving the landing zones on high ball boulder problems? How about drilling holds to make a climb "go"? There are dangerous climbs (PG-13, R, X) everywhere, why is it your self anointed responsiblity to improve the safety of these climbs across northern colorado by retro-bolting test pieces?
Pinch Overhang is a scary problem that I'd like to see made more "accessible" and "safe".... How about we go slam some bolted anchors on the top of that boulder in the interest of stewardship and access for the younger generation?

Ryan-Nelson wrote: From my perspective, the "Old Guys" never wanted anything to do with giving back to the community. We had made attempts at getting them into the NCCC.

Bullshit... Tell me exactly who you reached out to? You have my email address and we’ve consulted on the development of far less historically significant crags and I’ve shared the history of on those and folks gave you the green light. Why not this one?

Ben Scott wrote: Over the years this has caused tons of soil erosion, damage to the trees, and made some of the boulders loose/dangerous. We discussed all of these concerns with Larimer County and decided it would be best for the long term future of Duncan’s Ridge to install Top Rope anchors.

If erosion was the NCCC’s primary concern, what does installing bolts on the faces have to do with that? What about TR anchors? What about the impacts of exponentially increased foot traffic on the ridge?

To invoke environmental concerns as NCCC/Ryan’s motivations is again another strawman argument, if the erosion was your primary concern, the NCCC should have FIRST invested the resources in slope stabilization, erosion control, and revegetation and NOT installing bolts that would increase foot traffic and lead to further erosion.

Ben Scott wrote: In addition, Ryan and I discussed installing an entry level sport route to help new climbers learn to lead climb. Ryan took on the bolting efforts understanding that a minority portion of the community would likely be upset about these new anchors…… Through this surge of motivation, Ryan continued to install TR anchors and lead bolts without full discussion/approval from NCCC Board. I personally feel that Ryan went a bit overboard but only with the very best intentions.

^^^^That is the understatement of the century

Ryan: Ask yourself these 3 questions:
Why has no one thought to bolt this before me....and if they have pondered bolting here, what are the reasons that they decided against it?

I can’t possibly be the first person with access to a bosch in Fort Collins?

Who should I talk to/consult with that knows more about the area to see if this is a good decision?

Your obvious Stoke combined with a fully charged hammer drill, a self admited ignorance of history/tradition/ethic, and what I believe is a misplaced desire/motivation to make the community better has created a shitstorm for you.

Most of the argumentsthat you've put forward as justification for this sport "development" have been paper thin....

Ryan-Nelson wrote: If anyone wants to talk about this further, Just send me a pm or lets grab some coffee.

Ryan - Sitting back passively and waiting for folks to come to you is what has appeared to have created this mess for you in the first place.I'd encourage you to proactively reach out to folks here and mend some fences and repair some relationships in the community

Signing off....You know how to get a hold of me.....but there are far more important people germain to this discussion. Heyliger, Wilford, Duncan, Daly, Giddings....

John

People climb for different reasons. While there are many climbers who want easy and easily accessible sport routes close to Fort Collins, there are others where even the presence of a bolt detracts from the experience. We should not try to develop every cliff to satisfy the majority of the climbers, but try to develop climbs with respect to the climbing community. It is a valid question as to how to proceed with respectful development, and one of the ingredients should be the history of the area. Duncan's ridge has been popular for many years without sport climbs, and adding these sport climbs do detract from the experience for an established group of climbers; a group that exists due to the long history of climbing at Duncan's ridge. While I don't find the sport climbs ethically right or wrong, I do think more thought should of gone into creating sport routes at a well established cliff.

The addition of top-rope anchors is a different question, and probably warranted due to erosion issues.

My two cents.

jeff walz wrote:2 years ago, some group trundled every single boulder within rolling distance of the main cliff. I imagine it was a big enterprise involving pry bars, swill beer, and the rebel renegade spirit Bill M so admires. These things were (hopefully) not done by climbers. And definitely not done by top-roping.

Sidenote, sadly I cleaned up a fair amount of trash & empty beer cans at the base of TR climbs at Duncan's, so I'm not so quick to assume climbers are blameless in the destruction :(

Lot of good discussion on here and also a lot of egos. As with most MP forums you have to sift through a lot to distill valid arguments for both sides. Why don't we graduate from the MP forum and hold a public meeting to discuss things in person. We can pick a brewery, cafe, or any place. NCCC has done a great deal for Northern Colorado climbing and the climbing community. Lets sit down and discuss this like a community instead of vomiting hate online. "Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk"

FCJohn wrote: Ryan - Sitting back passively and waiting for folks to come to you is what has appeared to have created this mess for you in the first place.I'd encourage you to proactively reach out to folks here and mend some fences and repair some relationships in the community Signing off....You know how to get a hold of me.....but there are far more important people germain to this discussion. Heyliger, Wilford, Duncan, Daly, Giddings.... John

Can we get off his ass yet? Ryan does not need to go door to door apologizing to every climber who disagreed. He's already apologized to everyone. He's already taken measures to bolt more responsibly. He's even offered to not bolt unless personally asked by the community. He GETS it.

Ben and Ryan have spent thousands of hours up on the rock scrubbing lichen, clearing choss, developing trails, finding new rock, writing guides, dealing with the city, being ambassadors to landowners, etc. I've seen them doing it. Their opinions mean a lot more to me than some haters on the MP forums who bitch about how things used to be.

Times are changing, and the NCCC represents the unification we desperately need. There will be growing pains- but this situation is getting blown way out of proportion. Asking Ben Scott to step down? Yeah. Come on.