MUST use locking carabiners for top rope bolts?

I got chewed on today for using a wiregate on a top rope anchor bolt. I was a little annoyed when she said "now you know and will be climbing for years," implying that I could have potentially died. The carabiner on the other bolt was a locker. I understand you can use opposite and opposed non lockers for the rope end, since the carabiners overlap. Howevever, is using wiregates on top rope anchor bolts (which are typically bolt on more horizontal surfaces, as opposed to bolts on sport routes which are more vertical) a big no no?

Been climbing outdoors for only a few months so I'm a noob.

is it mandatory? no. is it safer? probably. will you die from using wiregates? no. ive always used wiregates. sounds like you had an encounter with the climbing police. someone will probably scold us both for using wiregates on the bolts now.

It's not uncommon to use non-lockers, people toprope using two quickdraws on anchor bolts all the time. Others prefer having at least one locker in the system, and some insist that all biners in an anchor system are lockers. Two non-lockers with gates opposing is reasonably safe (situation dependent), lockers are safer - where you draw the line on risk tolerance is a very personal thing. If you've got a climbing partner who greatly prefers locked carabiners on their anchors, might as well use them. Or if you're not willing to, then you're probably not a great match as partners.

So you're both right, and you're both likely to survive your next climb.

John Wilder wrote:definitely the climbing police. and most likely someone without much experience herself who, if i had to guess, could not tell you the 'why' part of her 'rule.' if you understand the fundamental principles behind what makes an anchor safe, then you can understand why lockers on bolts are not mandatory for top rope anchors. if there's one thing i've learned during my years as a climber, there are very few hard and fast rules when it comes to how to set up any given system. in fact, the only one i can think of when it comes to roped climbing with a partner is don't take your hand off the brake. Everything else is negotiable.

+1

As soon as I hear some one say "always" or "never" I know they are inexperienced.

perhaps there might be only one real rule in climbing if we really analyze it...never allow yourself or anyone else to hit the ground at full speed...I suppose that all the rest might just be principles

Enough said.

Harry Richardson wrote:perhaps there might be only one real rule in climbing if we really analyze it...never allow yourself or anyone else to hit the ground at full speed...I suppose that all the rest might just be principles

Cuz three quarter speed is totally ok.

I prefer lockers top roping. But if you have a wire gate on each bolt, I'll still top rope the hell out of that and let my kids do it too. It's redundant and that woman who told you that may not have enough experience to know the difference.

Also pretty standard way to top rope after a sport lead.

John Wilder wrote:definitely the climbing police. and most likely someone without much experience herself who, if i had to guess, could not tell you the 'why' part of her 'rule.' if you understand the fundamental principles behind what makes an anchor safe, then you can understand why lockers on bolts are not mandatory for top rope anchors.

+2 except I call them safety Nazis. They're out there; she won't be the last one you will encounter. Your best defense is to know your sh:t really well, including understanding forces and failure modes of the anchors you construct.

Possibly the same girl shouting beta on a route I've done dozens of times and then walking away in a huff cause I didn't listen to any of it. I know her.

We just use two quickdraws with opposite and opposed gates.

Greg D wrote: Cuz three quarter speed is totally ok.

When leading, think of a blown clip or a piece that pulled when low to the ground...any reduction of force that the rope/spotter/belayer might somehow provide is better than full-speed...think of bouldering and having a spotter assist in a correctly positioned landing and the slight reduction in impact force they provide...think of Screamers used on the first 2-3 pieces of sketchy ice...again any reduction of full impact force is better than no reduction of a full impact force...think of top-roping and an overly stretchy rope allowing the heavier-than-anticipated climber to hit the ground while falling low on the route...again a reduction of full-speed is better than no reduction...people hit the ground while climbing...seen it happen, had it happen x 3 and once, 25 years ago,as a new lead belayer, was the cause of it happening...you take whatever percentage you can get if things don't go as planned, but we don't plan to fail, now do we?

The reasoning behind using a locker in the a top rope system is because one can not monitor what is happening at anchor. If the route wanders and there is a potential for the biners to press up against the rock it is probably a good idea to use a locker. Otherwise the equal and opposite with regular biners will probably suffice.

You should have said "if you leave me alone, you'll live a lot longer"

Look climbing247

In the entire history of climbing there have been many reasons for top rope anchors to fail, using properly functioning non-lockers on redundant anchor points is not one of them. Spend some time reading AAC's accidents in mountaineering, let everyone else have their opinions.

here a story about someone who decked from 30m off a top rope anchor up here this winter

- climber is supposedly somewhat experienced

- climber takes out some inexperienced girl

- climber goes to the top to set up TR anchor

- climber sets up two sliding Xs for "reduncancy" and does not use lockers on the bolt side (description from someone who was there)

- climber throws down one side of the rope, ties into the other side and goes on belay

- climber weights the anchor going over the edge, anchor falls apart

- climber tumbles down the slab, luckily hes wearing a pack and that protects his back, decks and needs evac

what is suspected is that the climber clipped the wrong two strands of the double sliding X AND when he went over the edge the biner got loaded in such a fashion that one of the slings or biners came out at the bolt side

If the climber used a single sliding x, a SERENE setup or simply used a locker the accident would likely have not occured

Theres a difference between setting up an anchor from below when leading ... And setting one up top ABOVE the anchors and then going over the edge (flat top outs)

Not to say non lockers are "unsafe" but when loading from above you need to be careful that the biners are loaded correctly ... In this application lockers are "safer"

For an untended anchor with significant possibility of gate contact with the rock (i.e. bolts on a horizontal surface) I'd definitely use lockers. Do you have to? No, but it seems to me to be the most sensible way to do it.

I'm loving the responses in here ha! Probably one of those know-it-alls that was spoiled by her parents, raised to believe that she was a princess, and answers a question with soaked pride when the person was talking to someone else LOL! I see those types all the time. Humility and self control is all too rare in the world. The only thing that's gonna fail on a top anchor made with two non-lockers is the permanent metal on the wall LOL!

As others have stated there is a chance with wire gate carabiners or any non-locking biners to be forced open by the rock or other fixed pro like quick-links or chains. When the difference in price is a few dollars between a locker and a wiregate biner why not spend the cash and take the few extra seconds to twist shut a locker and have the piece of mind.

I would hate to explain to someone that I hurt myself or someone else got hurt because I was too cheap or too lazy to use locking carabiners.

I mean we are talking about setting up a top rope not trying to save weight for some ground breaking ascent.

She was wrong.

If lockers are available, it's reasonable to use lockers, but I can't recall ever reading about an anchor failure in ANAM from doing it this way. I'm pretty sure even the AMGA teaches that it's ok to top rope off two non-lockers to bolts.

just to play a bit of devil's advocate: it is better to bring up something you think is unsafe rather than always keeping it to yourself. in this case, the issue is mostly a matter of opinion. but if you frequent climbing.com's "unbelayvable" posts, you know that crazy stuff happens at crags and a lot of time its bystanders that intervene and stop people from hurting themselves or others. there is a right and a wrong way to bring it up to someone, and a smart comment like the OP get isn't the right way to do it.