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Not Your Typical Climber's Car

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

Thanks John, it's good to know. If the VW's aren't reliable and require lots of repairs they may easily take themselves out.

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
jmeizis wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the hybrids, Prius, Insight, there are a few of the older models for sale in my price area. I drove to J-tree from Colorado in a Prius. It wasn't bad. Not sure how they handle off the highway or in snow though.
I drive a 2002 Honda Insight:


You mentioned that in your last car you did things like "Black Velvet trailhead, Turkey Rocks trailhead". I've done both of those numerous times, and plenty of other similar in my Insight. Course you have to drive carefully.

I get 70+ mpg highway in the summer, 65 in the winter, and roughly 55 mpg city. I did a month-and-a-half long climbing road trip a while back, put 7000 miles on the car, and used exactly 100 gallons of gas, total, for the trip.

It handles fine on and off road.

It is absolutely a two-seater. No fold down seats or anything. But because no second set of seats, it easily carries two people's gear. I've gone on week-long trips with two people's climbing, camping, food, beer, firewood, etc. No problem. But I'm a good packer, so ymmv on that one.

Only problem is you'd have to pry the steering wheel from my cold dead fingers. I'll never part with mine, and most owners feel the same. Plus, they didn't make many.

But hey, you asked, so I answered.

Cheers,

GO
GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302

Oh, and I forgot to mention - I'm at around 140K, and only routine maintenance - no issues whatsoever. Aside from replacing the big hybrid battery, which they did completely under warranty - I didn't pay a dime, at 130K.

GO

Mike V · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

I have an '03 Jetta Wagon TDI and it is a fantastic car for long highway hauls. As a bonus, in "pickup truck" mode with the rear seats out, the trunk perfectly fits an Organic full+half pad for sleeping. The only downside is clearance - be sure to get a metal skidplate.

I strongly recommend that anyone who owns or is thinking about owning a TDI check out the forums at tdiclub.com - an essential source of information on all the common maintenance issues that come up, and what to look for when buying one. (If you're thinking about buying '09 or newer, be sure to look up HPFP issues).

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

Hey Gabe,

There are a couple of the newer Insights around. Not the same as the first version but still good gas mileage. How's yours do going up passes and in the snow? Do you fit skis and stuff in there?

I think the diesel's are out for me. Just can't really find any in my price range in my area.

Checked out a Hyundai Elantra. Really nice on the inside. Lots of nice features, cushy seats, lots of space (I can lay down in the back). Gas mileage is on the weak end of things but still pretty good.

Honda Fit=loud. I tried a used model and a new one and that thing sounds louder than my car. The seats are awesome though, wish the ride wasn't so harsh.

Toyota Matrix seems like a compromise between those last two. Similar gas mileage to the Fit but a little less space and better ride quality. Not as big as the Elantra though.

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
jmeizis wrote:Hey Gabe, There are a couple of the newer Insights around. Not the same as the first version but still good gas mileage. How's yours do going up passes and in the snow? Do you fit skis and stuff in there?
I haven't test driven it, but my sense of the second generation Honda Insight is that it's pretty much a ripoff of the Toyota Prius. Who knows, maybe Honda did a nice job, and it's better than the Prius in some ways - or worse - I dunno. But it's not much like the first gen Insight.

Going up really steep and long passes I downshift, and typically lose about 10mph. I can live with that.

In shallow snow in the city or highway it drives great. Deeper snow - fuggetaboudit. I've never bought chains or studded tires for it so I can't comment on how it would do on steeps in snow and ice.

Yep, I put me and my wife's skis/boards inside.

GO
Lou C · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 20

I'm in the same boat as you. I've ruled out subarus due to the fact that the AWD isn't worth the fuel economy hit. The other vehicles I was looking at are the Honda Fit, the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe (same car), and the Toyota Prius.

Honda Fit - Awesome car. Can sleep in it. Pull off amazing fuel economy. Store tons of things inside of it instead of on top (fuel economy hit with storing things on roof). To address the loud road noise, turn up the radio! Re: Ground clearance: If you don't need the options that come in the Sport package, the base trim does not have the ground effects, thus giving you a little more ground clearance.
The previous gen (pre 09) also has a "relax mode" for the front seat and rear seat to collapse and make a bed out of the seats themselves.(seen below)


Here's a pic of a mountain bike inside next to a sleeping setup.

Here's a shot of a Fit off the road.

Sorry for all the mountain bike pics. I researched the fit as a climbing AND a bike hauling car.

Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe - Good car. Have a friend who has one. Downside is that the interior is made of cheap parts. The dash lights cut out, and the glovebox broke easily. I'm not too interested in all that. Don't get the AWD model. It's horrid and ruins fuel economy. I'd rather the Fit.

Toyota Prius - This thing is just awesome. Decent room with the fold down seats. You can sleep in it or store quite a bit of gear. My FAVORITE thing about this car is the fact it can be camped in very comfortably. This car is like a mini RV due to the climate control. If it's hot out.. Turn on the AC and leave it 'on'. The battery powers it nicely. The motor will turn on a few minutes here and there. Any other car would need the engine running full time and it would eat up your gas. When you're NOT in dirtbag/travel mode this car is an awesome daily driver of course. Here is a link to a person who lived out of theirs... Neat read!
cheapgreenrvliving.com/priu…

Honda Civic - These can be more easily found than any of the others. If you're flexible about not having a ton of cargo room then this might be a winner, too. It's what I drive now. Reliable, economical, cheap to repair and find parts/support for. The biggest thing is that you'll find hundreds of them when looking around and you'll find one for a better deal because of that. 2006-2010 Seems to be the sweet spot to find one that's not all miled out and every now and then you can find someone in a tough spot that will take anything for it.

I am searching for a Fit or a Prius. Whichever I find for a good deal first is the winner.
jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

Yes I did get a new car. It only took like a year of looking at over 10 different cars and going to almost every dealership in the Front Range. I ended up buying a brand new Elantra Touring. The price was really good so even though it wasn't exactly my top pick it was better than all the trashed cars I was looking at from overpriced sleezbags.

So far I really like it. Drove it up to Turkey Rocks with 4 people and their gear inside. Scraped a root or two but my old car wouldn't have been able to move with that many people and stuff inside. I actually sold that car for almost $500.

It's nice inside. Seats are comfortable, even for a friend who's over 6 foot. Haven't gotten a chance to do any really long trips in it. So far gas mileage is good, hovering around 31 mpg, not great, but good enough. A bit of a shock though going from $35 a tank to $55, it lasts though. The space inside is huge. It's a bit much for the daily commute but when it comes to cragging I've started offering to drive and what i generally get in gas money makes up for the commuting days.

JohnL was right, the engine has no problems with passes, or passing for that matter. I'm finally able to pass people on the highway to Eldo without worrying about dying. Driving is actually sort of fun. Now if only people in Colorado could learn how to drive.

Short term pros: handling, power for size, space, price, features.
Short term cons: mpg is good but not great, girlfriend calls it my grandpa car...

I'll be going up to RMNP in it a couple weeks from now for a 2 week course, probably sleep inside it for a few days so I'll report back on how that goes.

New Car

John Korfmacher · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2004 · Points: 110
jmeizis wrote:For you diesel owners out there, how did you know the vehicle you bought was in good condition? I'm finding a couple TDI's nearby and I want to check them out but I have no idea how to check if the engine is in good shape. Do you check out the same things you would on a ICU? I really like the idea of being able to cruise up the hill at 42 mpg with all my junk and friends inside and not have the engine screaming in pain. I also like the fact that the engines have some more longevity. It seems like given my driving characteristics that it would be a long term savings for me unless I were to purchase something that was in poor shape and didn't recognize it. Any diesel mechanics know what specific things to look at? Thomas, thanks, I'm gonna look around this weekend and I'll keep you in mind.
tdiclub.com has a wealth of information on older TDI's...you can find out anything you want to know about buying a used one. Durability, like most cars, depends on how it has been driven. Ask questions about timing belt replacements, type of oil used (all-synthetic is best), and whether the driver frequently shuts down the engine immediately after hard use (i.e., freeway speed). Early (pre-2000) TDI's typically use a bit of oil by design (crankcase breather), but stay away from later ones that use oil as it probably means the rings or turbo is bad. A well-maintained TDI is good for at least 500k miles and can be had for less than $5k, especially the uglier (but more practical) '98 Jettas. Expect to pay quite a bit more for a wagon.

The 98's also have surprisingly good ground clearance, a notion I've tested many times. TDI's have a lot of freeway power and, because of the turbo, do very well at altitude.

I've put 240k miles--at an average of 45 mpg--on my '98 and it shows every sign of outlasting the apocalypse, the Chicago Cubs World Series drought, and the next couple of presidential administrations. Bien viaje.
Lee Green · · Edmonton, Alberta · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 51
Victor K wrote:...I don't know what the high maintenance cost talk is all about. It's been nothing out of the ordinary...
Same here. Don't fear the diesel. (With apologies to Blue Oyster Cult.) You drive a lot of miles, and the more miles you do per year the more the diesel's advantage shows, both in MPG and reliability.

We drive a TDI wagon, and it is a total workhorse. 47 mpg at 70 mph clean, 42 with a tandem bike, playboat, and creekboat on the roof and enough gear for the two of us to camp for a week in the back. We've never had cold-weather problems, and we've tested it big-time: we live in Alberta. Mountain passes no problem; up over 8000 ft that little turbodiesel is doing fine when more "powerful" cars are sniveling.

Watch your speed. It pulls so strongly and smoothly from low RPMs that you'll be going a lot faster than you think before you realize it. Fortunately station wagons are the antithesis of "cop bait".

A paddling buddy of mine recently got rid of his TDI wagon. He was pretty disappointed. He only got 498,700 miles on it. He was really hoping for 500k. Guess what he bought to replace it?

"German engineering" is a cliche for good reason.
wankel7 · · Indiana · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 10

Ford Focus Wagon - I had the 2004 with a manual transmission and a 2.3L. It has more cubic feet of storage with the rear seats down than ANY crossover out there right now.

You can find them under 5k and they should average 30mpg.

I replaced it with a 2003 Jetta Diesel Wagon. While I love the wagon and the last tank was 799 miles and 50.5 MPG I miss the space of the Focus Wagon. It has 20 cubic feet more storage than the Jetta wagon.

Kutasstrophie · · Charlottesville, Va · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 40

I drive a Mazda 3 hatchback and love it. I got it used with 60,000 miles and I've racked it up to right at 200,000 over the past 3 years. It has been my commuter car and adventure car and I have yet to have any major issues. It is a 2008 that I got for about $15,000 late in 2012 which is outside of your price range but a 2008 now should be more afordable. I put a roof rack on it for my mountain bike and never remove it and still get 30 mpg highway, 27 mpg city. It's gotten me through some seriously wicked winters and down back roads that a car probably shouldn't have gotten down but did fine. My commute is 50 miles one way so having such a versatile ride makes the trip bearable. In fact, when I retire this car I'll probably buy the same car over again.

Who Dat · · Spinning Rock, MW · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 5

Hyundai Accent hatchback, manual transmission.

Brand new for less than 14K, ~43mpg highway (in CO), relatively spacious, long warranties and shit..

wankel7 · · Indiana · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 10
Who Dat wrote:Hyundai Accent hatchback, manual transmission. Brand new for less than 14K, ~43mpg highway (in CO), relatively spacious, long warranties and shit..
Hand calculated or off of the trip computer?
Who Dat · · Spinning Rock, MW · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 5
wankel7 wrote: Hand calculated or off of the trip computer?
Trip, but it also lines up with filling up with 9 gallons after about 360+ miles (city use), so I'm guessing the trip must be accurate with highway use as well.
Travis Kaney · · Green Bay, WI · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 420

My '06 VW Golf has been a true road warrior for years now. No major issues, just routine maintenance. I've got a rack and Thule box (which was a pain to install, even working at a Thule dealer and having myself and another experienced guy doing the install). MPG isn't phenomenal but it's better than most; if you go to the TDI this is improve drastically. I've moved across the country in this thing, slept in the back (with the girlfriend, comfortably), and taken it to plenty of crags.

Clearance is the only thing that holds me back from certain areas. It can get most places but since moving to the desert, I've found more roads that are not Golf compatible, though I often still try.

My $.02

the crag hopper

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

To all you guys rolling in the Golfs complaining about the ground clearance. Go pick up a new set of springs made for the VR-6 model. They are 20% stiffer, and will lift the car up to an inch, depending on how worn your old springs are. 1/2 an inch over the stock height. Also, spring spacers work too, but use the old worn out springs. If you are getting the shocks replaced, the cost to swap the springs is minimal.

KERMA TDI springs

To the OP. Good pick, that company has a great warranty, you should be good for the decade :)

wankel7 · · Indiana · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 10

My 2003 Jetta measures 4.5 inches from the skid plate to the ground...yikes.

Nate KSD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 20

I'll throw in the honerable mention for the Cherokee (2000/2001 model preferred), while its technically a light truck, its capabilities make up for its faults in my opinion.

Pros:
-spacious interior, can seat 5 and haul tons of shit at the same time (if you put your faith in the roof rack)
-girls will love it
-with the rear seats folded down you essentially have a truckbed sized luggage compartment, with 2 side doors to grab shit more easily.
-If you're dirt baggy enough you could consider sleeping in the back, however someone who is 6 ft tall would need to stick their feet between the front seats
-Stock suspension is capable of going places that 99% of modern cars can not. There are places where people will tell you not to go without 4x4, and I've been there and back with a 2WD Cherokee.
-Leaves the possibility for lift kits and 4x4 if you want to add them later
-chicks dig jeeps

Cons:
-25 mpg freeway in ideal conditions
-low milage jeeps are hard to find (because the engines last FOREVER)
-bullet proof cooling systems are a necessity, 4.0L engines are known to overheat easily
-Rust, rust, and more RUST (if you don't live in the southwest)
- 4.0L engine is notorious for leaking. Must check oil levels periodically.

Maintenance costs:
-it eats up front tires
-front wheel bearings tend to go bad after about 100k miles, the entire wheel hubs must be changed, while they are easy to change, its about 100$ for both wheel hubs.
-the engine requires about 6 QT of oil for an oil change, so taking it to an oil change service would be pricey.
- it rarely needs mechanical attention, and parts are very very readily available for jeeps, and they're cheap too.

I would say if you have any very remote projects on your wishlist, you need a truck hands down, and the cherokee is a good choice, but if you're content with easy access climbing, then its not so necessary.

Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46

I'll throw in the honorable mention for the Cherokee (2000/2001 model preferred),

I 2nd Nate on a Cherokee being an awesome climber vehicle. BUT do not get a 2000/2001. They changed to a Aluminum head and that is what caused the overheating problems.

1994-1999 is the best option.

5qts of oil is standard for any 6cyl and you can expect 20-24hwy if you drive at 65 with proper maintenance

Tips

-If you remove the bottom section of the rear seat you can sleep two people comfortably under 6'4" in the back.

- drum brakes come standard on the rear axle, make sure they stay maintained to avoid drag (e-brake to)

- If you remove the standard airbox and go with a spectre or cold air intake, you can weld a box to hold a second battery (Yellow top!) you can then run a ARB fridge & run a small power unit in the back (check out expedition builds)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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