How to address faux pas at the crag?

I realize that sport climbing is relatively accessible to the public in that it is pretty easy to set up topropes and allow large groups to play for the day. However, I was unpleasantly surprised at the things I was seeing this past weekend at Rumney: toproping directly on lower-offs; "reserving" routes by saying you want to climb that in a moment while you are mid-climb on another route or by hanging a rope on it while everyone in the rest of your group topropes a nearby route; swinging off the cliff while cleaning an overhung route, grabbing your belayer and nearly smashing into another belayer; etc. Now, I'm willing to forfeit that certain routes are going to be popular for groups and that they deserve a chance to toprope them. I am also willing to consider that folks may not know some climbing etiquette. Yet, how is the situation going to be rectified if nobody tells them about it? It may not be my place, but would you respectfully inform them of the errors of their ways? Am I being overly, "get off my lawn?"

People are just ignorant. Rumney can be a shit show for sure. Had people pull the old 'me and my friends are over here on this climb but we are going to be climbing this one next' on me before. Parking lot wall, shouldn't have really been surprised. Interestingly, they all had the same odd tag thing hanging off their harnesses... Not sure what that was about. ;) Between that and the dogs running loose everywhere, I try to avoid Rumney on weekends.

As far as toproping through the lower offs, I think they just don't know any better, I say let them know to top rope on their own gear, if they don't know how educate them on proper etiquette.

Alas we are at Smith Rock for the last time. Not because the climbing is bad, but because we can't get on our favorite routes due to crowding. So this thread rears the ugly head of ROCK ETIQUETTE. Here is an article that had some good stuff:
Alpine Institute Top Rope Etiquette, part II

I know that there are several group organizations that promote rock climbing, from guide services to college programs. I admire and respect them all. What I also like to see is the group leader recognizing that individual climbers really want to challenge themselves on popular routes that the group has set up camp on, and allow/invite them to participate. It then becomes a shared community experience.

I don't like to see people that lick the route with their tongue (saw a Seinfeld show where he licked the door handle to keep other people away), claiming ownership, and not sharing. Diminishing resources! More people than climbing routes, we HAVE to share and be respectful of others space. Ok, I still give a shit about others. I have met people that do not.

Day before yesterday we were climbing a route that was next to a popular multi-pitch. We had the lead climber setting up the first pitch belay when we got showered with rocks. It's cool, part of climbing. When I saw the rocks coming I yelled rock and the top of my shouting ability, lead knew and ducked head down. Heard a "rope" reply, no problem. The second pitch anchors were shared by the two routes. We knew this so hung out at the first pitch until the descenders had passed. We got showered several other times and each time yelled out "ROCK". I don't think they ever tumbled to the fact that their rope drag over scree was causing climbers below them to duck for cover.

Glass houses and throwing stones. I barely missed a car on wall street in Moab when I inadvertently toed a loose rock. I yelled rock and felt badly about the mis-step. Ok, not too badly, I know you can't keep every rock from falling, I just try to be careful and feel bad when a rock gets away.

All that being said, I try really hard to be tolerant of my neighbors, thinking that they really want to do the right thing. Sometimes I am inclined to gently educate, many times I will get a FU response, I for one will keep trying to do the right thing. As a general rule folks listen to my BS, nod, and either modify their behavior because what I said makes sense, or they ignore me.

Sorry, a bit off topic, I have never climbed at Rumney, but thought the thread was about etiquette.

Dallas, thanks for the response. The thread is not about Rumney per se. As we are already seeing, this is a pervasive problem. I figured we should have a discussion on how to address it...

Dallas R wrote: All that being said, I try really hard to be tolerant of my neighbors, thinking that they really want to do the right thing. .

I used to think that, but I've been proven wrong so many times... There are lots of assholes out there.

Dallas, that was a good read, really lays out some really good general guidelines.

I agree that it really is becoming a pervasive problem, not only with rock, but ice as well. Saw this past season, a large guided group who set up top ropes in the middle of the first pitch of a classic multipitch ice climb. We luckily were on it when they showed up so it didn't have any effect on us, but the guy who showed up to run a solo lap up it when we were on our way out couldn't get on as they were still clogging it up.

Stagg54 wrote: ... There are lots of assholes out there.

I know your frustration. I feel sorry for them because they are leading miserable lives and will probably have many painful accidents.

I also like the saying, "never attribute to malice what you can to ignorance..."

scienceguy288 wrote:"never attribute to malice what you can to ignorance..."

Took me a minute to untangle that one, but I like it.

Maybe most people think I'm a big dick. If a route isn't currently in use. It's fair game for all. I'll ask who is getting on it next if anyone is around. Leaving a rope up doesn't reserve it. Claiming you are about to climb something but not immanently, means I get to go first. To own a route, you must be actively preparing to climb that route. Rope flaked, tying in, racking, and shoeing up. Anything else means the route is free. I tend to like the less crowded and obscure areas for the obvious reasons. I've found most groups to be accommodating and receptive.

Just say something, as diplomatically as you can. I might start out with something like " That is a very popular route and people are waiting to get on it..." If they don't get it or are just pricks about it, then you have to make a judgement call on if it is worth it to yourself and others to go further. I would usually head to less crowded crags to start with to avoid dealing with this sort of thing, but I might pull somebody's rope if they were hogging it completely unreasonably. Just because somebody is TRing or a group each taking a turn is not hogging. Multiple attempts or letting it sit there may be. It is not worth escalating it to a shouting match or fistfight though with a potential psycho, tempting as it may be sometimes. Diplomatic, but assertive is usually the way to go.

My Wife and I for years before we were an item would fake a fight.
A date gone horribly wrong. . .
If the crowd did not disperse fast enough
we would start throwing rocks at each other she had better aim,
and two or three full contact shots
the other parties would be packing up shouting at me that I was a jerk and leaving,
Cliff clear and honey do list pulled out

we could count on ten minutes of blissful alone on the cliff time.

Ha haha only half joking though!

Tim Lutz wrote:Bring a boombox with 90s gangtsa rap, a pitbull and crag baby and you will clear the crag.

I forgot where I heard it, but somebody suggested talking really loudly about your prison stint...or just start free soloing...

We need a "like" button as this is a good conversation, but I venture to guess most of us on MP probably have similar feelings regarding etiquette and it's not reaching the intended audience? I think most of the ignorance comes from the increase in popularity of climbing gyms and then people wanting to get outside to climb. So then does the onus fall onto gyms, guides, etc to teach proper, basic etiquette? I think there was an article a few years back about actually having to get certified to climb, much like scuba. Would this be another way to get everyone on the same page?

I've experienced some of this when I used to climb at Cathedral, and the Gunks. The remedy for us to get there early and rarely did we go on weekends.I like peace when I climb and can't stand crowds. Prior to all the regs at the gunks we used to get up there at 6 am or camp out on the curve the night before. We'd get 3 climbs in before noon of our choice. I've seen crazy arguments break out at the GUnks between those trying to get on a climb and those waiting.

Now I'm happy to live in Colorado where I can head into the backcountry and find empty to nearly empty crags, although I do miss my roots back east.

Lutz .... PERFECT! Though I welcome the simplicity of faking a domestic disturbance to run folks off. No need to carry the extra props.

H
Yes, in the Gunks go early and stay off the ground
When weekends became my reality I stopped going.

I was part of the scene for years though, there is a long history of soloing, Ninja-like, past crowds,
But it can be a humbling experience as the distractions some times reach thru the focus. . .

I am sure that the locals still run up and down Gunks and Cathedral, what was it ?
Thin air to the really good finger crack at the top what was that finger crack called?

Any way I had to explain to a EMS guide that I had no idea what route I had done and if I could just pass him I would be fine, if he made me hang out I would not be fine. The clients were tethered, stationary and off to the side of my desired route but he was a "a Some One" with an attitude so I sent the finger crack instead of passing,
all a long time ago.

Is Ganging up/guiding on trade routes a good swing in the topic??
Have you ever encountered a 'surly' guide or obnoxious clients?

+1 Craig

Hanging a rope does not reserve a route--someone is either on, or it's open. Ask anyone that's nearby, and then pull the rope. Of course, put it back up when you're done.

For the guy climbing and shouting out reservations, just say, "great dude. you're next in line!" (We won't be long!)

I generally try to be helpful, especially when someone's doing something perilous. Starting with "you're doing that wrong" doesn't usually work, so think about your approach...

Most crags I have been to let others climb their rope (does depend on the people) if they are not using it and it is setup for top rope.

We were climbing a 5.11 at the red and a group on a 5.10 around the corner asked if they could top rope the route after we finished it. We said sure but after finishing the route realized there was to much overhang for it to be safely top roped (have to get up a good 40ft before the swing would not hit ground). But at that point one of them had taken a fall on the 5.10 route and hurt his foot so I ended up finishing / cleaning their route for them.

I have been out to crags expecting to climb 2-3 days with a friend before he had to leave but ended up finding other random people to spend an entire week with climbing.

Just ask nicely and be nice and it normally isn't an issue. I think the only issues I have ran into was I sometimes trad lead common top rope routes and have had people throw ropes on top of me because they assumed people only top rope it.

I would say just make sure if you are using other people's things you treat it with care, more so than what you would do with your own gear. If they think you are being over cautious it looks good on you and they will tell you not to care so much.

climbing friend,

You must do the challenging of them to a confrontation physical, question their manhood, and bump your hopefully well-muscled chest into theirs.

Michael Schneider wrote: Have you ever encountered a 'surly' guide or obnoxious clients?

No, but I did get held up behind a guide and 2 clients rapping solar slab at a snails pace, who wouldn't let us pass. Literally took 45 minutes, per rap, to set the rope and get both his clients down it. Such brilliant questions as "why can't I get down the rope faster?" with a prussik back up on a double rope rap.

3 groups backed up behind them, 7 of us decided to join rapping forces but to no avail. The 3 of them would rap down and the guide was already set up on his anchors.

guide was doing double rope raps (skipping every other rap station) and we had 7 people doing single rope length raps leap-frogging the ropes, and we still managed to stay up their ass for the 4 hours it took to rap down...

Jake Jones...

Good point regarding gyms not being negatively impacted, but do they have a responsibility if they are encouraging "real" climbing?