Tallulah Gorge Peregrines
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Adding "duh" to my comment was definitely a step too far, and I totally understand why you're pissed. |
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I am good friends with Ben, Derek, Paul, Sam, Ryan, Tim M., Tim T., Rob, J.A., etc..... |
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"All that development was out of Chattanooga." Yes, unfortunately. As noted above, the Chattanooga "bolt the world" ethic is a cancer that's spreading, and the culprits you seek--whether for retro-bolting, crack bolting, hold chipping or route-name graffiti painting--likely come from there. Odds are, too, they're likely affiliated with the SCC, either officially or unofficially. Dig deep enough and, besides the ego, laziness and bad manners of the individual offenders, you'll find a profit motive...as others have noted. |
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Climb in the South from time to time: |
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BHMBen wrote:John mentioned that Betty and Curt didn't say anything... Well, so what. Jim Corbett wrote:And sax, as I said earlier, it does not matter whether a route has been documented.Y'all say "so what/it doesn't matter" -- but it does matter. How is anyone supposed to know that a line has already been established if nobody speaks up, or it's not documented. People love having their little secrets that they only share with friends, but they pay the price when someone who's not in on the secret "discovers" what they think is a new route. If you expect climbers to be mind-readers, you're going to get disappointed over and over. JL |
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Whit, |
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As pressure on our crags increases with population, greater grass roots involvement is needed in all corners of the TAG, if just to keep things tidy. Plus, each of these three states has unique circumstances and politics. |
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"The sensible thing would have been to have a moratorium on new routes until the history of the place was documented. " ask the CCC how this turned out..... |
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I wasn't at that meeting. But I can say that when, at it's conclusion, one of the SCC's most benevolent benefactors pretty much wrote them off as a lost cause. It surely didn't go well. |
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Paul Barnes wrote:"children."Somewhat like the Mickey Mouse club. S.F. has got it right. |
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Let's do this...it might weed out the children...and crack bolters. |
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saxfiend wrote: Y'all say "so what/it doesn't matter" -- but it does matter. How is anyone supposed to know that a line has already been established if nobody speaks up, or it's not documented. People love having their little secrets that they only share with friends, but they pay the price when someone who's not in on the secret "discovers" what they think is a new route. If you expect climbers to be mind-readers, you're going to get disappointed over and over. JLSo your position would be that bolts put in after a line has been led cleanly on gear should be left in simply because the bolter didn't know the line had been climbed? That's absurd. Or entitled. If the line is undocumented I wouldn't be outraged the way I was with JA retro bolting some of Curtis's and Shannon's routes that were in every edition of Dixie Cragger's (though by definition there would be gear placements, however sparse, that should have given the bolter pause), but I would insist, gently, that, well, it's been done. Sorry about the effort you put in, take your gear and use it on another, unclimbed, line. Sounds like Mr. England gets that, which is encouraging. Are you sure you're thinking straight? |
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Jim Corbett wrote: So your position would be that bolts put in after a line has been led cleanly on gear should be left in simply because the bolter didn't know the line had been climbed? That's absurd. Or entitled. If the line is undocumented I wouldn't be outraged the way I was with JA retro bolting some of Curtis's and Shannon's routes that were in every edition of Dixie Cragger's (though by definition there would be gear placements, however sparse, that should have given the bolter pause), but I would insist, gently, that, well, it's been done. Sorry about the effort you put in, take your gear and use it on another, unclimbed, line. Sounds like Mr. England gets that, which is encouraging. Are you sure you're thinking straight?Are you sure you're reading straight? I never said anything whatsoever about leaving a retro-job in place. My point is that you wouldn't have to deal with it at all if people were aware the route had already been done. Not that it excuses the way the SCC handled things, but there were people with direct knowledge of the history of Yellow Bluff who could have kept the retros from happening just by sharing that knowledge with the SCC. But apparently they didn't. Which sounds like less of a hassle to you -- publicly documenting your FA; or going back later, finding out it's been retro'd, getting in a confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.? JL |
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saxfiend wrote: Which sounds like less of a hassle to you -- publicly documenting your FA; or going back later, finding out it's been retro'd, getting in a confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.? JLMost undocumented routes are undocumented because the access is less than straightforward, like YB was. At some point the access might become less of an issue, like YB has. I assume you wouldn't think it a great idea to broadcast such routes in the meantime, and that shouldn't become an excuse for every bonehead to bolt up something that let's not forget could demonstrably be led on gear. |
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saxfiend wrote: confrontation with the bolter, bitching about it on the internet, etc.? JLBitching on the internet is a sport for some people. This thread sure has gone off the rails. But there is some wheat mixed in with the chaff. I suspect I have very little in common with Jim but respect for tradition and maintaining some sort of ethical standards with respect to the treatment of climbing areas is probably something we're not that far apart on. Having said that I'm not sure I understand what him and Todd and some of the others think the solution is. Like it or not (and sometimes I don't like it at all when my favorite areas get more crowded every day) climbing has gone mainstream and there are a lot of new climbers coming into the sport who don't share the same values. Bitching about it may feel good but it's not likely to change their views. Mentoring younger climbers might though. It may take time away from doing what you want but it can be fun too. Something to think about. |
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Sorry Sax, I really was not comfortable giving you my information. However, I did try several times to contact Mr. Watford and plan a trip to get the information for his new guide book. He was not interested. Probably too busy changing correct info to false info as he has stated in an recent thread. In retrospect, I wish someone with some credibility from the SCC would of asked for the information, I might have given them a history lesson about Yellow Bluff. How me and my partner found it and put up sixteen routes all on gear, all on perfect sandstone. Then we told the Alabama Climber's about it, and the shit hit the fan Bolts and runners took over, turning the cliff into something that looked like a decorated tree. The land owner closed the cliff after some crazy, lazy sport climber decided to cut some of his trees down so he could park a little closer. How do we go on if we can not even learn from our past mistakes. |
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I hope this issue can get resolved. I haven't been climbing long enough to have firsthand knowledge of the history of these places in the SE, but I've climbed with some of the "old guard" (guess you have to have been climbing for a while to have common sense?) and it seems that it's common sense to not bolt a line that goes on gear. Guess the sport climbers are above learning to place gear. |
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DavisMeschke wrote:I hope this issue can get resolved.I believe it actually is. Thanks to the Northern Alabamians for reaching out to Paul and myself last night..... Thanks to the concerted efforts of the Georgians addressing Tallulah.... And other Georgians addressing the SCC directly.... Thanks to some strong influence in Chattanooga.... And thanks to the prevalence of common sense, even amongst all this verbiage.... It seems that a dialogue of the appropriate sort has now re-commenced. I have it on good authority that Chatt-centric crack bolting is going to have a succinct and direct address in the near future..... Alabamians need to continue to talk and then address YB and some other missteps....and those talks are happening. Georgians are talking with Tallulah soon....and we are all hopeful that such an attractive resource is not marred by climber interaction, rather that it improves it....and significantly. In talks last night, it has become clear to me how small, yet disconnected, the "concerned community" is. Sure, the "climbing community" is big and getting bigger in the SE.... Birmingham, Chattanooga, and ATL perfectly frame the best sandstone climbing in the U.S.A., for crying out loud.... But, from within the ranks somewhere, there must be some semblance of order, sustainability, and mature consideration to the impact we are all having on resources that some of us have been around our whole lives. And, yes, a lot of us operate "near" the SCC, but it has been made evident that the issues we have raised, concerning the T.A.G., have been swept under the rug... Well, now that it seems we're all somewhat stirred up and talking (even as disconnected as we may be).... I come to find that most everyone on this thread and ALL of the 'Olde Guarde' have withdrawn support. This speaks volumes about the state of things and this proliferation of tomfoolery. This thread and other conversations that are occurring, represent the utter upset amongst some of the strongest, most prolific, and most tenured rock climbers in the SE. And a fear of what we have done to ourselves with the prolifieration of climber-money, cheap price of entry, and popularity that is hurting access for us all. If not managed well, we're all screwed. It is in the interests of the very SUSTAINABILITY and ACCESS that we all enjoy that this address has been made. So, yes, Davis..... I too hope this is resolved. Some very smart guys have called another meeting and it seems that this one will actually be structured and run with a goal in mind. Let me know if there are questions. And, stay tuned. |
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Sounds promising, Ben. Thanks for staying on top of things. |
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To the lurkers who have emailed support...thank you. |