Is It Wrong to Let Children Do Extreme Sports?

ViperScale wrote: Yes, I have been very aware of risk since I was 10. I would say more aware than most in their 20s. I also graduated at 16 with a computer science degree so I think very logically. I think the difference is just because it scares you and you think it is too risky doesn't mean that just because someone is younger doesn't mean they aren't fully aware of the risk. At the same time i know plenty of people in their 20s that i will not climb with because they have no concept of risk / danger involved in what they are doing. How many people do you know have watched someone die doing "extreme" sports? I have since I was 10 so I know exactly what could happen. I know what kinda effect it left on the family... i am still willing to make the choice and risk it. Sure my mom still gets freaked out (i told her after i went sky diving the first time, she came and watched me later) but I have got her to understand that I know the risk and would rather risk death and live life than sit in a room all day playing video games (which i still do sometimes because i grew up hacking / moding games). My point is you can't base someone's understanding off of age.

quick question:

When you were 10 years and understood the risks of what you were doing, does that mean you were willing to take responsibility for them to? ie. if you fell climbing and got all busted up and ended up in the hospital were you willing to take responsibility for your hospital bills? Where you ready to mow lawns until to you were 20 to pay for it? What was your plan?

Even if a child knows exactly what they are getting into, they are still a child and the parents are still responsible for them, therefore the parents should be the ones making the decisions...

Stagg54 wrote: quick question: When you were 10 years and understood the risks of what you were doing, does that mean you were willing to take responsibility for them to? ie. if you fell climbing and got all busted up and ended up in the hospital were you willing to take responsibility for your hospital bills? Where you ready to mow lawns until to you were 20 to pay for it? What was your plan? Even if a child knows exactly what they are getting into, they are still a child and the parents are still responsible for them, therefore the parents should be the ones making the decisions...

Sure it isn't hard to understand that if you get hurt that there is a cost for it (I have spent alot of time getting hurt, going to hospitals etc), this is basic logic. That hasn't really changed over the years. I have alot to say about that whole subject of insurance etc but I don't want to get off topic that much.

Rob D. wrote: That is to say that because of how organized team sports are, there is almost always an immense amount of resources spent training and overseeing each athlete. On the other hand, individual sports that very rarely are actually organized in the same way team sports are, tend to have more opportunities for non-obvious injuries to slip through the cracks.

I thought overall your post was good. However, personally, I have different perspective on this observation. First, the concern over concussions is pretty new. I played football freshman year in high school and can tell you that that issue was never raised at all within our team, the JV team or varsity. Second, I think the personal motivation of coaches and the somewhat ingrained notion that you suck it up and play through injuries often puts team performance over the welfare of the individual player. Finally, because sports like climbing are self motivated, I believe people do a better job of evaluation their injuries. Not everyone mind you, but certainly more so than with a team sport.

Fat Dad wrote: I thought overall your post was good. However, personally, I have different perspective on this observation. First, the concern over concussions is pretty new. I played football freshman year in high school and can tell you that that issue was never raised at all within our team, the JV team or varsity. Second, I think the personal motivation of coaches and the somewhat ingrained notion that you suck it up and play through injuries often puts team performance over the welfare of the individual player. Finally, because sports like climbing are self motivated, I believe people do a better job of evaluation their injuries. Not everyone mind you, but certainly more so than with a team sport.

The trend in the last 10-15 years to pay much better attention to head injuries was fueled by pieces like this one. Everyone I know that coaches (50+ people) has done a good deal of professional development to help identify things like concussions or other traumatic though not-obvious head injuries. The "tough it up" attitude definitely still exists, but with even professional athletes calling out the problems I see the shift happening and have noticed it for a while.

While you are true in saying people like us, adults, do a much better job paying attention to our own injuries, the truth is a 10 year old doesn't know that when they land on their head and are dizzy that there's a real chance they've just done real, permanent damage and need to deal with it. Think about how quickly a coach or trainer would scoop up a high schooler that gets decked and lands directly on their head in any sport. Now think about how we just ignore high schoolers in the climbing gym that take nasty falls beyond just going "Hey, you okay?" A 15 year old DOESN'T know if they're okay and the lack of trained professionals around to evaluate whether they're okay or not is what scares me about children doing less-organized sports. I can't count the number of times I myself climbed with, skateboarded with, and snowboarded with broken bones and dislocations.

Rob D. wrote: The trend in the last 10-15 years to pay much better attention to head injuries was fueled by pieces like this one. Everyone I know that coaches (50+ people) has done a good deal of professional development to help identify things like concussions or other traumatic though not-obvious head injuries. The "tough it up" attitude definitely still exists, but with even professional athletes calling out the problems I see the shift happening and have noticed it for a while. While you are true in saying people like us, adults, do a much better job paying attention to our own injuries, the truth is a 10 year old doesn't know that when they land on their head and are dizzy that there's a real chance they've just done real, permanent damage and need to deal with it. Think about how quickly a coach or trainer would scoop up a high schooler that gets decked and lands directly on their head in any sport. Now think about how we just ignore high schoolers in the climbing gym that take nasty falls beyond just going "Hey, you okay?" A 15 year old DOESN'T know if they're okay and the lack of trained professionals around to evaluate whether they're okay or not is what scares me about children doing less-organized sports. I can't count the number of times I myself climbed with, skateboarded with, and snowboarded with broken bones and dislocations.

Noone knows unless they are told that there can be permanent damage from an injury. I don't care if you are 30 years old. If you tell a 15 year old they need to be careful if xyz happens than they are just as capable as a 30 year old. Lack of knowledge is different than not being able to make your own decisions when it comes to risk.

How many older people have you seen at a local crag do stupid stuff? Is it because they are to young or is it because they have never been properly trained? You train a 10 year old properly they will be just as capable of handling things as a 20 year old (better if the 20 year old has no training).

I think the problem of most 10 years old not being able to judge risk comes from lack of training than the able to process the information.

ViperScale wrote: My point is you can't base someone's understanding off of age.

You absolutely can. Brain maturity is very clearly linked to risk taking and risk aversion. There was a good scholarly article a few years ago titled "Risk Taking in Adolescence" that covers this. There were also a handful of articles in non-scholarly papers that did a good job boiling it down.

another pretty okay read about it:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl…

And a point worth making is that even if you have somehow matured ahead of your peers, the fact is you are so much more prone to life-long injuries while your brain is still developing, so if you were able to properly asses risk to the degree to which you claim to be able to, you would realize that even small injuries to bodies still growing have higher consequences.

More damage was done to be my doctors giving me ADHD medicine than was ever done by risky behavior. I remember the year when i finally decided to stop taking it even though doctors said i needed it. It was like waking up for the first time.

Sorry but I have read through enough scientific studies that contradict their own findings to call most of it BS.

It is the problem with our entire system of schools. They want to lump everyone in the same category but people are just not the same. Sure i bet there are some kids who are not able to think logically and make decent decisions but not all. All you need to do is go to college and you will find tons of people unable to make a decide decision.

ViperScale are you early / mid 20s? You reference an unusually early graduation date (presumably a university in the US, since you cite a computer science degree). Your last assertion reads a lot like the "invincible superman" perspective of a highly achieving and intelligent younger adult. That's not an invalid perspective, but perhaps a unique one. The assertion "15 year olds can evaluate risk like 30 year olds" sounds like it's said by someone who's closer to 15 than to 30. Perhaps your 15 year old safe was as rational as a typical 30s person.

As I move into my mid-30s, I tend to believe that many young adults doing stuff like climbing, mountain bike racing, etc, are in the midst of "meta" negative feedback loops in that they can push limits hard and likely not have a bad accident. They also haven't been in the game long enough for the odds of objective hazards to really catch up with them. I argue that their data set isn't complete enough to be able to have a well-calibrated model of risk assessment.

TL;DR - get off my lawn whippersnappers. Stay in the game long enough and you'll see (or experience) things that dramatically alter your perspective on objective hazards and ones' own ability to make good judgments and execute well each time you go out.

My perspective on certain things has changed over the years (mainly when i entered the work force). I never realized looking back to my younger days that most of my friends were not normal from a thinking perspective. Alot of them ended up as drop outs / druggies etc but they all were well above average intelligence. I always considered myself average growing up but that was because i never was really around average people.

When it comes to climbing i much prefer long easy lines of the 5.7-5.9 trad range over really risky things. However I do at times go do high ball V5 boulders more at my limit, just depends on my mood.

Like i said i think you need to look at kids as unique and can't just lump them together and say o well they are unable to decide something because they are too young. Kids know what is right and wrong when they are still toddlers, yet it annoys me that alot of people look at a teen and say o well they are just being kids and don't know any better.

I know some of the top teen climbers in the world and one of them I have tried to get on sport or trad multipitch and he will not do it. He is making his own decision that the risk of doing a multipitch isn't worth the reward even though he can climb a 5.14c and anything we would be doing multipitch would be under 5.10.

quote:

"IMore damage was done to be my doctors giving me ADHD medicine than was ever done by risky behavior. I remember the year when i finally decided to stop taking it even though doctors said i needed it. It was like waking up for the first time.

Sorry but I have read through enough scientific studies that contradict their own findings to call most of it BS.

It is the problem with our entire system of schools. They want to lump everyone in the same category but people are just not the same. Sure i bet there are some kids who are not able to think logically and make decent decisions but not all. All you need to do is go to college and you will find tons of people unable to make a decide decision".

Sounds like you were well served by medical intervention
You survived your most risky period of life due to your Dr's Diagnosis .
I would not know though?

I Am Strongly supportive of mental health intervention
As well a being aware of teenage risk /resistance to authority,
All of which was better treated by purpose driven even survival drive, style ?"rehab?"

Youth boot camps were a more recent version of old school behavioral modification tactics.

Back in the day schools like NOLS, Outward bound & Out Post, had full programs
For at risk youth and court ordered durations imposed.

Unfortunately there were also Juvenal halls and Military Academy style work camps.

That you "Woke Up" is a great way to see the end of physical puberty.
The changes, that having finished off, left you better able to handle life,

you began to regulate
Your own actions.

The physical changes,
are the first, easy ones.

the mental/psychological Brain takes years more to mature,than the physical body,
25 -29yrs in some men, and longer in ADHD folks.

Especially in the higher achiever, the time period between puberty and full maturity is a
Documented time of high risk.
Along with very high levels of creativity the 20yr span is often plagued with actions that range from great feats of daring to self- destructive love, and suicide.

But many of us just call this living life.

Sorry maybe I should have been more detailed but i stopped taking the meds when i was like 11-12.

I was put on them because i got bored at school and found ways to entertain myself. Some teachers get annoyed by it but i was put into isolation alot of times which was ok with me. One of the teachers who baby sat me found that i liked math and just gave me really complex math to work on and I was cool with that.

I think it slowed down my ability to learn. Like walking through a fog and one day i decided to just stopped taking them "woke up" and things went back to normal. I never told my parents until years later that i stopped taking them.

I had to decide on my own that the doctors didn't know what was best for me. It maybe was better for the teachers at school because i was a zombie and didn't cause (as many) problems from being bored. But overall I assume it hurt me for slowing down my learning by at least 2-3 years during my younger years when we learn faster.

Michael Schneider wrote:Sounds like you were well served by medical intervention You survived your most risky period of life due to your Dr's Diagnosis . That you "Woke Up" is a great way to see the end of physical puberty.

Have you ever been on ADHD meds as a kid? It is by far one of my worst experience of my life (probably even worst than a brother dying). Imagine taking every bit of excitement, adventure, desire out of life and leaving you starting straight ahead as a zombie.

Dude, that is so young?!
Too young for any drugs!

no way would I consider anything but fresh air and exercise until kids are 17-18.
I do know first hand , almost , with my sister,
She went with aderall(sp.) with my nephew,
at age 15 and held him back a year eF'd the kid up.

Till he broke the med cycle too.

Her other son was not given any drugs till seventeen, but he was more placid starting out,
And benefited from the full therapy thing, took off for Iceland solo, and came home his own man at 20.

Both men now in there mid twenties do not climb are from Cali.

I was not attacking you in any way or making light of your views.

I have known very mature twelve year olds and very immature 50 yr olds.

Oh, part of the drug'em so they tow the line and make it easy on the teachers!
Sorry for assuming .

I was before the medical intervention age they had other ways when I was that age,
You may not think so but servitude to drugs was a better choice than Military/jail/streets

Oh yeah there was Yosemite but straighten up and fly right with the help of pharmies.
Was not an option.

Am I too late to the dead-horse beating party?

I don't think kids should be allowed to do something where a single error could kill them or cripple them for the rest of their life. Kids do not even have the mental capacity to even understand why free soloists exist.

I'm pretty young, which means I can almost remember when I was a dumbass kid that tried doing dangerous things because I saw it on fucking TV, and I broke alot of bones because of it.

I think alot of these problems are ultimately caused by the "climbing needs more exposure" types of people. Either they're the gym owners that want to get more people into their gyms, or they're the gear companies that want to double their output, or they're the yuppie ass film producers that want to expand their audience. Climbing does not need any more exposure than say something like surfing needs. Climbing appeals to people who see expression in rock formations. Just like a surfer would look at a wave and I say "I want to ride that", a climber sees a line and suddenly the mind is stolen by the rock. If people want to climb, then they will find climbing.

It really should not be the other way around. Gym owners should not be pedaling youth groups into the gym, because kids even as old as college aged people do not have the capability to recognize real risk. "Oh that shit will never happen to me, here - watch as I split a lane on my crotchrocket going 100+ in rush hour traffic.". Here's my unpopular opinion: keep kids out of climbing gyms. The majority of the time when I see a kid in a climbing gym they're pretty much climbing like a typical dickhead - they're making up their own traverse through a line that someone else is working on, stepping on chalkbags, climbing roped stuff without a harness, otherwise being a liability to everyone around them. Meanwhile the gym salesman is standing next to mom/dad filling their ear with every golden word about how climbing is such a great sport, how it will keep their kid in shape.

Nobody takes any responsibility. Too many gyms do not pay attention to people doing stupid shit (see: Unbelayvable), the parents are uneducated about proper climbing safety, and the kids are just being kids. The gyms/gear companies profit, the kids get injured/die, and the parents lose. Hooray capitalism.

Nate KSD wrote:Am I too late to the dead-horse beating party? I don't think kids should be allowed to do something where a single error could kill them or cripple them for the rest of their life.

So don't let kids, ride a bike, drive a car, hike, leave the house? Life is a risk, you got to get used to it and find a level you are comfortable with. Out of my 7 friends i know that ride motorcycles 6 of them have been in wrecks. Only 1 of them was their own fault. You know what i bet alot of the parents probably are clueless, hopefully they find some mentors in the gym that can teach them about risk that their parents don't know anything about. The sooner you start to train someone the sooner they will understand the risk of what they are doing. You don't magically learn things from growing owner. You learn them from experience.

SPOILER ALERT: You are going to die one day.

ViperScale wrote: So don't let kids, ride a bike, drive a car, hike, leave the house? Life is a risk, you got to get used to it and find a level you are comfortable with. Out of my 7 friends i know that ride motorcycles 6 of them have been in wrecks. Only 1 of them was their own fault. You know what i bet alot of the parents probably are clueless, hopefully they find some mentors in the gym that can teach them about risk that their parents don't know anything about. The sooner you start to train someone the sooner they will understand the risk of what they are doing. You don't magically learn things from growing owner. You learn them from experience. SPOILER ALERT: You are going to die one day.

You're really comparing climbing to riding a bike or leaving the house?

Nathan Self wrote:Some people are reasonable. Some are unreasonable, overbearing or overprotective. And the world remains dangerous.

Nathan,

Thanks for that photo. I use to climb at City of Rocks every year for Boulderfest during Holloween when i lived in the south west. Really Really sharp sandbagged highball problems. Loved Climbing there.

Matthew

To all the comments saying it is ok to allow kids to free solo.

I am in all support of allowing your kids to perform extreme sports. I grew up skateboarding and since age 14 have experienced countless concussions, broken bones, stitches, etc. Half of them were from skateboarding and half of them were just from falling off of a tree or tripping while playing tag.

Kids should be allowed to enjoy any extreme sport they see fit with proper guidance and loving parents.

However, There is a line that should be drawn by the parent. No you should not let your kid free solo. He might have the ability to do so, but he does not have the maturity or proper life experience that is needed in order to make such bold and potentially life altering decision. You cannot control whether a kid does it out by himself with friends or not of course. But what is the big deal with being a responsible parent and wanting your kid to live his life safely until he is an adult and has gone through enough real life experience to make that decision for himself AS AN ADULT.

Disclaimer: I love extreme sports, support extreme sports, and support any adult's decision to put his life at risk. As adults and parents, it is our responsibility to make sure our youth understands the full list of risk associated with these things.

ViperScale wrote: Sure it isn't hard to understand that if you get hurt that there is a cost for it (I have spent alot of time getting hurt, going to hospitals etc), this is basic logic. That hasn't really changed over the years. I have alot to say about that whole subject of insurance etc but I don't want to get off topic that much.

Doesn't really answer my question. As a 13 year old how were you prepared to take care of medical expenses, etc. if you were injured?

As an adult, I have health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, and emergency fund. As a 13 year old...

ask this guy....

I wonder how many people who are posting to this thread are actual parents?

18 to 25 year old childless extreme dudes talking about how they would let their kid free solo...

Would you let your kid attempt Everest? Unexpected weather rolls in all the time; you OK with that? Remember, holds can and do break unexpectedly and "he died doing what he loved" is going to ring pretty hollow in mom's ear.